Do First to Die Policies Still Exist?

[VolAgent]

Yes, Phoenix did have a first to die. It was a fairly expensive UL, but it was great for people that needed it (joint debt), and cheaper than two uls. Not sure why this is such a daedal concept on a life forum.

It isn't that it is a hard concept. It is that it wasn't used much and as UW guy attests to, most were poor risks. Neither one encourages an insurance company to offer the product, put together and it almost ensures a company won't offer it.

It costs money to have a product on the shelf and if rarely used, it is cheaper just to withdraw it.

 

[Newby]

I've tried to work with a company to develop a 1st to die product for the FE market. If it could be done affordably it would be a huge seller. Because many couples have enough insurance for their funerals but whoever dies first leaves the surviving spouse with lesser income.

The problem is the health underwriting has to be based on the least healthy person. The age has to be based on the oldest person. And when the actuaries estimate the mortality of the oldest/least healthy they have to figure there is twice the chance that one of them will die younger than average.

The premium is just not sellable because it's priced too close to two separate policies of the same amount. We've got it now on the PreNeed funeral product. I use it occasionally for setting money aside for mausoleums.

Senior Life has a version available. I don't think they sell it much.

 

[ATM]

Senior Life has a version available. I don't think they sell it much.

No company ever sold enough of it to make it feasible. North American used to have a really good first to die, probably back in the mid to late 90s. Just couldn't get enough policies sold to make the deal work so they dropped it like just about (if not ) all companies.

I still get asked about it once or twice a year but that doesn't turn the lights on in the big marble buildings.

 

[ZenSamurai]

He was lying to you unless MM just came out with it or had it hidden away somewhere.

When I started in the business back in 2012 I started with Mass Mutual and I remember seeing them with a joint life and a survivorship product. They may have done away with them recently if they don't sell them but I know I saw them.

 

[62doddst]

If I recall correctly the Phoenix 1st to die was a variable UL and you could add up to 7 lives. State Farm currently has one that is a current assumption UL with 2 lives max.

 

[VolAgent]

When I started in the business back in 2012 I started with Mass Mutual and I remember seeing them with a joint life and a survivorship product. They may have done away with them recently if they don't sell them but I know I saw them.

Yes, a survivorship policy, but not a first to die. Survivorship pays when the second covered life dies, first to die obviously pays when the first one dies. Quite a bit of difference there.

I doubt Mass would ever do away with survivorship policies without a big change in estate tax law.

 

[WMG]

No company ever sold enough of it to make it feasible. North American used to have a really good first to die, probably back in the mid to late 90s. Just couldn't get enough policies sold to make the deal work so they dropped it like just about (if not ) all companies.

I still get asked about it once or twice a year but that doesn't turn the lights on in the big marble buildings.

Agreed. I remember North American's product and they had a bit of a reputation in that niche; but it was a very specific niche. They actually marketed the product to allied professionals -- to fund Buy/Sell agreements, liquidity at first death, etc. However, you hit the nail on the head -- they just couldn't sell enough and attain large enough #'s to make it feasible.

----------

If I recall correctly the Phoenix 1st to die was a variable UL and you could add up to 7 lives. State Farm currently has one that is a current assumption UL with 2 lives max.

I believe Phoenix did have one. I think I looked at it once, recommended it, etc. -- but I don't remember the details of the product. I do remember it being VUL though. Thanks.

 

[62doddst]

As the old saying goes "be careful what you wish for..." So many agents wanted the First to Die product and when they got it they didn't know what to do with it. Niche product. The product is still around, but barely... Kinda like the ROP term product, it sounds good and it gets you appointments, but 95% of the time you sell something else.

 

[WMG]

As the old saying goes "be careful what you wish for..." So many agents wanted the First to Die product and when they got it they didn't know what to do with it. Niche product. The product is still around, but barely... Kinda like the ROP term product, it sounds good and it gets you appointments, but 95% of the time you sell something else.

Agreed...very good point.

Any other carriers you are aware of? Thank you in advance.

 

[62doddst]

Phoenix Companies and State Farm are believed to be the only carriers that underwrite first-to-die coverage. Phoenix's Joint Advantage Universal Life and State Farm's Joint Universal Life Insurance products. NY Life might have a FTD term policy.