Did You See This Crap on ABC World News?

Markingriffin · 09-28-2009, 08:49 PM

I saw this on ABC world news tonight and thought it was a load of crap.
Instead of buying insurance they talk you into doing this crap and have faith that other members will take care of you when you get sick. But they make no promises, it is all on faith. LOL
Samaritan Ministries International

"Samaritan Ministries International is a community of Christians from around the world joining together to bear one another's health care burdens in a loving, cost-effective manner that doesn't involve health insurance"

arnguy · 09-28-2009, 08:56 PM

Yeah, I saw it Mark. The ABC World News coverage was, in my opinion, negative. When the reporter tried to pin down that pastor regarding catastrophic medical expenses, the pastor was very evasive and segued into the members having faith. Good luck with that. BTW the part where the Illinois Insurance Commissioner stated his views certainly did not invoke feelings that one can rely on faith to pay the medical bills.

somarco · 09-28-2009, 09:38 PM

I had the Good Sam group several years ago. They paid their bills on time and were an outstanding risk for my carrier. We reinsured claims xs of $50k.

Can't say if they still do that or not.

Medi-Share is a similar organization.

The concept makes sense. It is tough to qualify for coverage and the plans don't cover a lot of things insured plans cover.

Since it is not insurance, they don't have to comply with state mandates, and don't have to meet reserve requirements.

The biggest challenge for their members is getting a doc & hospital to accept assignment if you need something major. Since there is no guarantee of payment, it is all on faith, you may have trouble getting someone to agree to schedule that kidney transplant on faith.

I like the concept, but I feel anyone who goes into this kind of arrangement needs to have a high deductible plan to back it up. Time still offers (I think) a $25k deductible. Problem is it is priced about the same as $10k deductibles here in GA.

xrac · 09-28-2009, 10:20 PM

I am not familiar with this one but I know of Medishare. They are similar. Here is my opinion. They are not full blow insurance and you are probably in trouble if you have a really big bill. However, they are helpful and better than nothing if one cannot afford health insurance. A friend of mine particpated in Medi-share.

JamesLansberry · 09-29-2009, 12:39 PM

The news story about our ministry was less than friendly, and these non-profits operate in a way that is difficult, if not impossible, to characterize fairly in a 2 minute news segment.

I have offered some thoughts of response on my blog at healthcaresharing.org

Our members share in millions of dollars in needs every month, over $35M this year alone. I'm not a pastor, but I'll have to assume the comment about "the pastor" above was referring to me--we are a faith based ministry. There was no attempt to be evasive, and it is obvious if you go back and look at the segment that it was cut mid-thought. There are no guarantees, but our members have seen their needs met over and over and over again, and they are happy with our ministries. We are providing a charitable, affordable option to health insurance for those who choose it. It's not for everyone, but the 100,000+ people in the U.S. who are using this model would like to keep it.

James Lansberry
Vice President
Samaritan Ministries International

pipedream · 09-29-2009, 12:56 PM

For about 15 years after we became self-employed in 1975, we went without health insurance. Then for 10 years we participated in a similar plan - Christian Brotherhood Newsletter which was the original plan of this sort.

The plan was simple, at the time about 5000 families banded together to pay each other's medical bills. For eleven months out of the year we received a letter with the name and address of a family who had experienced a medical need to send our monthly contribution to. One month of the year we sent our contribution to the headquarters for administrative costs.

In the beginning the contribution was $75/month and at the end of our participation in the beginning of 2000, the monthly contribution was $405. If I remember correctly, there was $200 deductible per incident. Until the last year or so, the program worked great. It was actually a pleasure to send a check and note of encouragement to a family each month instead of an insurance company. Eventually, there were internal troubles and even though the CBN never claimed to be insurance, many state's insurance commissions began to cause difficulty to the organization. We had three small claims (around $1,200) during our participation and it worked well until the last one which took way too long to process which caused us to drop out and obtain an HSA (then MSA) which had just been authorized for 750,000 policies by Congress.

The programs cited previously in this thread were an outgrowth of Christian Brotherhood Newsletter which after reorganization and straightening out some things that were messed up, has come back as Christian Healthcare Ministries. I wouldn't call any of them "crap"....they were and are merely a creative attempt by ordinary people to cope with the high cost of health care and "share one another's burdens". People usually learn of them by word of mouth and of course, there are no commissions to be earned.

xrac · 09-29-2009, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by JamesLansberry

The news story about our ministry was less than friendly, and these non-profits operate in a way that is difficult, if not impossible, to characterize fairly in a 2 minute news segment.

I have offered some thoughts of response on my blog at healthcaresharing.org

Our members share in millions of dollars in needs every month, over $35M this year alone. I'm not a pastor, but I'll have to assume the comment about "the pastor" above was referring to me--we are a faith based ministry. There was no attempt to be evasive, and it is obvious if you go back and look at the segment that it was cut mid-thought. There are no guarantees, but our members have seen their needs met over and over and over again, and they are happy with our ministries. We are providing a charitable, affordable option to health insurance for those who choose it. It's not for everyone, but the 100,000+ people in the U.S. who are using this model would like to keep it.

James Lansberry
Vice President
Samaritan Ministries International

Thank you for the post and welcome to the forum.
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Originally Posted by pipedream

For about 15 years after we became self-employed in 1975, we went without health insurance. Then for 10 years we participated in a similar plan - Christian Brotherhood Newsletter which was the original plan of this sort.

The plan was simple, at the time about 5000 families banded together to pay each other's medical bills. For eleven months out of the year we received a letter with the name and address of a family who had experienced a medical need to send our monthly contribution to. One month of the year we sent our contribution to the headquarters for administrative costs.

In the beginning the contribution was $75/month and at the end of our participation in the beginning of 2000, the monthly contribution was $405. If I remember correctly, there was $200 deductible per incident. Until the last year or so, the program worked great. It was actually a pleasure to send a check and note of encouragement to a family each month instead of an insurance company. Eventually, there were internal troubles and even though the CBN never claimed to be insurance, many state's insurance commissions began to cause difficulty to the organization. We had three small claims (around $1,200) during our participation and it worked well until the last one which took way too long to process which caused us to drop out and obtain an HSA (then MSA) which had just been authorized for 750,000 policies by Congress.

The programs cited previously in this thread were an outgrowth of Christian Brotherhood Newsletter which after reorganization and straightening out some things that were messed up, has come back as Christian Healthcare Ministries. I wouldn't call any of them "crap"....they were and are merely a creative attempt by ordinary people to cope with the high cost of health care and "share one another's burdens". People usually learn of them by word of mouth and of course, there are no commissions to be earned.

Good post from someone who has utilized such a service.

Markingriffin · 09-29-2009, 01:22 PM

I just wonder if a HSA would be better? What do you think?

pipedream · 09-29-2009, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Markingriffin

I just wonder if a HSA would be better? What do you think?

We're on our second HSA policy. The first was a family policy. Now (for reasons which are explained in the thread linked below) we have three individual HSA policies. With certain caveats, I think HSA's are the way to go but far from a health care panacea.

What happened with our the first HSA family policy purchased from Assurant Health in 2000 can be read about here - My Assurant (Consumer - not Agent) Story

I do think that if all Americans paid OOP for routine medical expenses (checkups, flu shots, routine office visits & blood work, etc.) and all had HSAs that would assure coverage for the big stuff, many of the ills that the administration and congress are trying to address could be cured.

JamesLansberry · 09-29-2009, 08:45 PM

"I do think that if all Americans paid OOP for routine medical expenses (checkups, flu shots, routine office visits & blood work, etc.) and all had HSAs that would assure coverage for the big stuff, many of the ills that the administration and congress are trying to address could be cured."

I couldn't agree more. I think that's one of the reasons that Samaritan's monthly share is so low. When I talk on the radio (frequently) about health policy, I use sharing ministries and HSAs as two great examples of where patient centered plans (as opposed to employer centered plans) are helping change the cost curve already by engaging, rather than insulating, the patient.

James Lansberry
Vice President
Samaritan Ministries International

Markingriffin · 09-29-2009, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by JamesLansberry

"I do think that if all Americans paid OOP for routine medical expenses (checkups, flu shots, routine office visits & blood work, etc.) and all had HSAs that would assure coverage for the big stuff, many of the ills that the administration and congress are trying to address could be cured."

I couldn't agree more. I think that's one of the reasons that Samaritan's monthly share is so low. When I talk on the radio (frequently) about health policy, I use sharing ministries and HSAs as two great examples of where patient centered plans (as opposed to employer centered plans) are helping change the cost curve already by engaging, rather than insulating, the patient.

James Lansberry
Vice President
Samaritan Ministries International

SO you are VP of Samritan Ministries International that we saw on ABC NEWs??

VaDwayne · 09-29-2009, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Markingriffin

I saw this on ABC world news tonight and thought it was a load of crap.
Instead of buying insurance they talk you into doing this crap and have faith that other members will take care of you when you get sick. But they make no promises, it is all on faith. LOL
Samaritan Ministries International

"Samaritan Ministries International is a community of Christians from around the world joining together to bear one another's health care burdens in a loving, cost-effective manner that doesn't involve health insurance"

This is not a load of crap. The Mennonite Church, of which I am a member, has been self-insured forever (Conservative Mennonite) . Money is pooled together and things are taken care of. Although I am not a member of the Conservative Mennonite church, there is no doubt in my mind that if I became sick or disabled today, my family would be fine.

JamesLansberry · 09-30-2009, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Markingriffin

SO you are VP of Samritan Ministries International that we saw on ABC NEWs??

Yes. I'll be following this thread for a while, at least, and feel free to ask any follow-up questions!

James

somarco · 09-30-2009, 03:28 PM

James -

Since you are participating, let me ask something. Have your members had problems scheduling major surgery (or other events) since there is no guarantee of payment. Are medical providers willing to work with you, and your members, since this is not an insured policy?

Also, some states have taken programs like this to task, claiming they are operating as an unlicensed, unregulated insurance company. Even thought Good Sam doesn't truly take on any risk the underlying principle is the same.

Does the plan still have stop loss insurance for larger claims or have they moved beyond that?

JamesLansberry · 10-01-2009, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by somarco

James -

Since you are participating, let me ask something. Have your members had problems scheduling major surgery (or other events) since there is no guarantee of payment. Are medical providers willing to work with you, and your members, since this is not an insured policy?

We have on rare occasions had a provider difficulty related to a member's ability to pay for a surgery, etc., at the scheduling point. Usually the member is able to describe what they're a part of and that works fine. In the rare situation where that's not satisfactory we've sent a letter to the provider describing how we've worked, and in one lone case a private hospital asked for some more documentation and was pleased with what they received. Our members pay their bills faster than most insurance companies and much faster than Medicaid in most states, and so we've enjoyed a pretty good reputation there so far. In addition our members are paying close to "list price" for services so the providers like the extra profit that comes from non-negotiated rates.

Originally Posted by somarco

Also, some states have taken programs like this to task, claiming they are operating as an unlicensed, unregulated insurance company. Even thought Good Sam doesn't truly take on any risk the underlying principle is the same.

Good Samaritan is a different animal from Samaritan Ministries (just a clarification there). We have had (SMI) some inquiries from state insurance commissioners about what we do and in most of the cases we send the materials and that's the end of it. We've gotten a letter of commendation for our model from the former Indiana state insurance commissioner as well. Eleven states have specifically stated in their insurance code that health care sharing ministries are not insurance, and we provide a disclaimer to anyone who inquires about our ministry to that extent. My staff takes great pains to ensure that no one joins with a false impression, at least to the best of their ability.

We did have the state office of insurance in South Dakota this past winter file a bill with the SD Legislature declaring our model to be defined as unregulated insurance, but the bill failed in its first committee by a vote of 6-1.

We provide a charitable, non-insurance alternative that is a great option for some people. And our members love us.

Originally Posted by somarco

Does the plan still have stop loss insurance for larger claims or have they moved beyond that?

A sister ministry, Medi-Share, used to have a stop loss policy, but they found that it made things more confusing for state departments and have since dropped it. Samaritan Ministries has never had an insurance element to it.

Thanks for the questions.

James Lansberry
Vice President
Samaritan Ministries International

rags2riches · 10-01-2009, 12:22 PM

VaDwayne, I am in Sarasota and there seems to be a large population of the Menonite Church represented in the eastern parts of the city. I have no knowledge on the beliefs, and forgive me if this is a dumb question but, are these the beliefs toward all personal insurance? Life, health, LTC, etc.? I met with three families last week (same day lol) all Menonites who informed me that the church has provided them with their life and ltc needs. If they go into a home, the church will take care of them...
I'm a man of faith so please know that I'm not poking fun or questioning the beliefs, just a seeking some info on the Menonite principles...
Thanks in advance.

InsureGuy5 · 10-01-2009, 02:10 PM

It's is a good thing to have faith, but I would not have faith in others to pick up my bills. I think you have to count on taking care of yourself financially.

somarco · 10-01-2009, 02:23 PM

our members are paying close to "list price" for services

Why would you do that? You are paying more than you need to which means you are cheating your membership. With 100,000 members you could easily cut your "claim" payout by 30% or more.

Good Samaritan is a different animal from Samaritan Ministries

My bad. Thx for the clarification.

You really should have a stop loss policy in place. Without it you have a lot of exposure, in addition to paying too much for "claims".

Markingriffin · 10-01-2009, 03:05 PM

James, is there any way for insurance agents to help promote your company and make some $$$$$

Example if we sign someone up, can we get anything...

JamesLansberry · 10-02-2009, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by somarco

Why would you do that? You are paying more than you need to which means you are cheating your membership. With 100,000 members you could easily cut your "claim" payout by 30% or more.
<snip>

You really should have a stop loss policy in place. Without it you have a lot of exposure, in addition to paying too much for "claims".

We do negotiate discounts, and average about 20% on providers who we negotiate with, over 30% on our successes. We don't want to be a part of a PPO or any type of network, though, because our members having the ability to choose their own providers is important to us.

We'll agree to disagree on the stop loss. It would be a liability with insurance regulators, and again, not part of the nature of what we are as a faith based ministry. I know that may seem "polly-anna-ish" to many of you, but that's who and what we are. And our history is that we've seen, over and over again, the system to work and God to take care of us.

James Lansberry
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Originally Posted by Markingriffin

James, is there any way for insurance agents to help promote your company and make some $$$$$

Example if we sign someone up, can we get anything...

We give a referral credit to members who refer another member (amounts to giving them their membership for zero dues--it's equal to our annual membership dues), but we do not have any commission based salesmen. Nor are we interested in doing so. Sorry.

But if you want to refer anyone out of the goodness of your heart because it's something that would mesh well with a particular family, please feel free! :-)

James