Help Me Decide Between Guardian or MM, what Should I Be Looking Out For?

[MM_advisor]

The MM San Francisco agency used to offer new agents a salary but not anymore. It's 100% commission. On the bright side, when you do joint appointments with your sales manager during the first 3 months, YOU keep 100% of the commission. If you do joint appointments with veteran advisors, then you negotiate a commission split like 75/25.

The "back room" folks are paid salaries and are free to use by the agents.

There is no minimum application count or premium $, but if you don't make money you're going to end up quitting anyway.

The mentality in this agency is that you're running your own practice so some agents hardly ever come in to the office and instead work from home.

 

[scagnt83]

Just got off the meeting with the Guardian GA and I'm not really impressed.

He seemed very intelligent and you could tell that his been around for a long time but he seemed very micro managerial and that pushed me away.

Here is the deal
6 apps in 90 days + 10k in premium to validate your contract. After that you get salary of 2k a month which is simply your future commission advanced to you.

I asked if the salary can be declined and he said no.

They want you to do your first 6 apps with one of their top performing agents and here is the breakdown of the split. 50% to you, 30% to the other agent and 20% for the back room to do the paper work for you and complete the underwriting. His excuse was that they want their agents to focus on production and not waste any time on none production tasks. To me it sounds like bunch of bologna.

I asked him if I come on board and close 6 apps on my own would that qualify me and I was told no.

Basically what I got from this is just like what any other career agency does. Take new agents in make them do a project 100/200, sell to their relatives and friends and then show the agent the door. No thnx Jeff!


The office had some staff members in there and other agents but there was total silence, not a single phone was being used to solicit business. It felt like there was literally no connection between anyone in there.

Expenses were disclosed and there were no office fees if 16k minimum production met.


Living Balance sheet was the only thing that grabbed my attention and I have to say that its an amazing tool and I could see it coming in handy in many situations but there is a fee for it. 100 for your first year which the GA pays for, 200 your second year and 300 after your 3rd year. (Per Month)


Over all captive with Guardian looks the same as being an employee at a bank. That is the exact opposite of what I am looking for so I think I'll pass. It seemed like a very corporate environment with the employee and employer mentality and no matter how much training is provided and even if they did give me salary which was not a commission advance it still wouldn't make sense to me.


I have another meeting with one of the Mass GA offices tomorrow so hopefully that goes better, I will update on that later.

I hate to break this to you, but you just described pretty much every captive career agency in the US.

For a green agent, working with an experienced agent is an invaluable experience. I did this to start and there is no way I would be where I am today if I had not done that. NYL did not force us to do that, but they highly encouraged it. The Managing Partner of my office basically walked me into a senior agents office and said "take this guy with you and you will learn what you need to learn". And a 50/50 split is more than fair, especially when that senior agent is only getting 30% of it.
It is also likely that the senior agent has some old books of business that were handed down to him from retired agents. And if you prove yourself to them, they might let you work those books of business for them.

Like I said before, career agencies will have certain expectations of green agents. It takes some getting used to, but it is also the activity that a green agent needs to be successful in this business.

I guarantee you that they are not micro-managing the experienced agents in that office. You have to pay your dues if you want both freedom and success in a career agency.

What you should be more weary of, are the career shops that just let you loose with no direction at all. Remember why you said you wanted to go to a career agency... for the training... part of that training is the direction of people who are more successful than you are.

 

[jbroker]

Stay independent and find a GA that has contracts with both Guardian and MM and more. This will give you more options for your clients and make you more rounded and less likely to be shopped and beaten on product design or price.

Seek out a mentor as mentioned above. He is right.

 

[MW Agent]

David,

I started in the independent channel, and like you, I felt like I was missing something. It's really in your head, you will be sorely disappointed in what you find when you go to a career shop. Technical knowledge is really easy to come by. Marketing/prospecting is the key and unfortunately, a career shop will not teach up what you need to do. You will still need to figure it out on your own, but for less pay.

You seem like a smart guy, maybe too smart. It really isn't a secret: massive, direct, boots on the ground prospecting activity is the key. With it, you can be successful anywhere. Without it, you will fail anywhere. You can get smarter at marketing as you get more experience and marketing dollars, but stage one is just to do it on a massive scale.

Be completely honest with yourself. While you have been in the business, how many phone calls were you averaging a week? Under 250? Were you actually working eight hours seeing people or trying to see people? If not, why? If your activity has been low, a career shop with a manager is not going to fix it for you.

Whether independent or at a career shop, success in this business is a do it yourself project. Pick a track to run on, then go do it. Put together a simple survey or product menu tonight, go show it to everyone you know and don't know tomorrow. I promise it will work if you do just this 30 hours a week.

Good luck with whatever decision you make, but where ever you go, hit the ground running. If something is holding you back, that's what you need to figure out first, not your place of employment.

 

[David88k]

Pros:

-MM is non-captive which allows me to sell another carrier's cheaper term or disability insurance.
Are they allowing you to offer indexed products if you're a career agent? And assuming they don't because your're using massmutual logo to brand yourself, would they allow it if you start using a dba?
-Training by the wholesalers is pretty good (2x a week).
The managing director told me that there would be a 2 week full on training which looks very tempting
-Sales manager doesn't micro manage you. Agents don't work from the office everyday.
-Teach you the Sandler sales system and LEAP philosophy (financial planning software) which is a powerful skill set.
-90% commission bonus your first year
So you get 55% base + 90% of the base as a bonus?
-Pays for 50% of your marketing expenses
is that in addition to your base and bonus? or is that included in your bonus?

Cons:

Office A said that they pay for everything but parking for career, office B said that they charge 70 for E&O plus 50 for parking.
They also charge for priting which is no big deal because I wont be using their printer.

Any other expenses I should be looking out for?

_______________

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It felt like that at my old Mass agency too. Even though there was a "bull pen", it's not like people were making any calls.

I felt quite self-conscious when I was making calls, because I have a resonating voice and I know everyone could overhear me. One agent tried to give me advice, but I was still battling my own self-consciousness of making the calls... I didn't want to hear any criticisms when I just wanted to make the calls, regardless of results.

So, if you find the same environment at Mass, don't say I didn't warn you.

I know exactly how you feel and that's a big concern for me too but the first office has a few private cubicles that I can put a screen door and get to work even if other people aren't doing anything.

The second office that I went to had a few people on the phones which was good to see. The first location of GA #2 that I went to visit was an hour away so I asked them if they have a closer office that I can visit and they said yes. I went to the second office which is about 30 minutes from where I am and there too were a few people working the phones. One thing that I didn't like about the second GA's Managing directors is that they were trying to act like their doing me a favor and that there is a qualifying process that I had to go through.

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What you should be more weary of, are the career shops that just let you loose with no direction at all. Remember why you said you wanted to go to a career agency... for the training... part of that training is the direction of people who are more successful than you are.

I 100% agree with this, hardest part is figuring out which office will do that for me

Stay independent and find a GA that has contracts with both Guardian and MM and more. This will give you more options for your clients and make you more rounded and less likely to be shopped and beaten on product design or price.

Seek out a mentor as mentioned above. He is right.

How would you recommend to go about doing that? Just interview them one by one to get a feel of them?

----------

David,

I started in the independent channel, and like you, I felt like I was missing something. It's really in your head, you will be sorely disappointed in what you find when you go to a career shop. Technical knowledge is really easy to come by. Marketing/prospecting is the key and unfortunately, a career shop will not teach up what you need to do. You will still need to figure it out on your own, but for less pay.

You seem like a smart guy, maybe too smart. It really isn't a secret: massive, direct, boots on the ground prospecting activity is the key. With it, you can be successful anywhere. Without it, you will fail anywhere. You can get smarter at marketing as you get more experience and marketing dollars, but stage one is just to do it on a massive scale.

Be completely honest with yourself. While you have been in the business, how many phone calls were you averaging a week? Under 250? Were you actually working eight hours seeing people or trying to see people? If not, why? If your activity has been low, a career shop with a manager is not going to fix it for you.

Whether independent or at a career shop, success in this business is a do it yourself project. Pick a track to run on, then go do it. Put together a simple survey or product menu tonight, go show it to everyone you know and don't know tomorrow. I promise it will work if you do just this 30 hours a week.

Good luck with whatever decision you make, but where ever you go, hit the ground running. If something is holding you back, that's what you need to figure out first, not your place of employment.

Thank you for your response and I completely agree with you. One of the biggest problems that I have is that I spend to much time planning and not enough time prospecting which is the primary skill necessary for this business.

I really don't know whats holding me back but I remember when I was with the bank it was nice to feel like you're part of a team and I guess I kinda miss that feeling. Another issue is that with the bank we had a process in place and we knew what to do. In this business and with my current situation I feel like there is no process and I was hoping that a career shop will help me put one together. But like you said it is all in my head and if I can't find a decent spot to grow with I guess I just have to create my own process and my own shop.

I have another interview next week so I'll post how that goes but I'm not going to get my hopes up. At the end if things don't work out I can always put together a website in a few days and come up with a DBA and just continue what I'm doing on my own.

 

[DHK]

Having been at a bank, I understand.

Let me help you with the insurance side of the business: Unless YOU hire them... there is NO TEAM. In an investment firm, it's even worse. Your "co-workers" are waiting for you to fail so they can "divide up the spoils". But in insurance career agencies... there are agents that will be friendly to you, and some might even 'mentor you' a bit... but unless you're paying them (salary or a commission split), there is no team.

Don't forget that at a bank, you had people you worked with that had different authorities and responsibilities. That was imperative for operating a bank structure. In insurance, you don't need much of any of that.

In a bank, you'll still be paid, even if you're just taking a deposit or doing other non-sales activities. In insurance sales, you're not really 'working' until you're talking to a prospective client. You know that... and the other agents in the office (should) know that. It's a grind... unless and until you enjoy the grind.

In insurance... we don't need "team building" activities, monthly meetings with district managers, or "leadership training". You are a professional to learn your craft... to sink or swim. They'll provide you some tools (some at a discount but still at a cost) and they'll let you make calls.

It's all up to you. That should either terrify you or excite you.

What I love about insurance over a bank environment... is there's no butt-kissing to managers. I HATED AND DESPISED THAT! Everyone is trying to kiss up to someone in order to be considered for a promotion or some other bs.

If you want to get noticed by an insurance company... just write a lot of good business. Someone will take notice of you... by your results, not by your words and how good you try to make yourself look.

Lots of phony people in banking... lots of flash... and little substance. Ever notice how they pay bonuses just for opening accounts? I thought that was stupid. They should pay bonuses based on the growth of net deposits being brought to your branch, not accounts. Accounts can be liabilities for a bank... while deposits are true growth.

Anyway... I know what you mean, but I can also see right through it too.

 

[MM_advisor]

David, to answer your questions...
-MM doesn't want their career agents to sell indexed products b/c those are too risky. The indexed universal life insurance policies I've seen from my clients usually end up with half the cash value as the illustration.

- Some agents have a DBA and their own office and logo. You really do run your own business.

-You are allowed to be appointed with other carriers. I help my clients by giving them options from other carriers.

-The reward trips for making your sales goals are fantastic. The conference in Orlando last month was mind blowing (and cost the company millions of $). I can't imagine how much the open bar for 4,000 people cost them.

-The initial training in the SF agency is a one week all day orientation. You also have 2 training sessions a week which are led by MM's trainers (sales ideas, life, disability, long term care, annuity, investments, etc.) who fly up and down the west coast.

-I'm not sure about LA but in SF you get your base commission + 90% bonus. Commission on insurance products range from 30% to 55% of the annual premium. If you sell a 20 year whole life policy that has a $10K annual premium, your commission works like this: $10K x 50% = $5K. Plus 90% of $5K = $4.5K. Total commission is $9.5K. Most of it gets paid after 2 weeks and some of it gets paid later in the year.

-In SF, the rent is $50/month. We don't have printer/copy fees. We do pay for our own E&O insurance. They pay for the employer's portion of your payroll taxes, offer 401k match, life/disability insurance, medical insurance, etc.

-The 50% marketing expense reimbursement works like this: If I spend $500 to pay for a vendor display booth at a dentist convention, MM reimburses me for 50% or $250.

-Other expenses include buying a laptop, printer, new clothes, gas, attending networking events, etc.

-Your sales manager and other career agents will show you how to conduct client meetings in return for either a 0% or 25% commission split. Hopefully, you meet some nice colleagues who won't try to take 50%. New agents deserve a break!

-Doing joint client meetings with an experienced advisor is the FASTEST way to get better. Do joint meetings with all the veteran advisors in your office and keep the best things you learn from them and discard the rest.

-IMO, the best way to find new clients is to do tradeshows and seminars. The more people who know what you do, the better off you are.

-Don't approach friends and family until you learn how NOT to sound salesy. Practice by speaking to strangers and jot down all your failures and the prospect's objections. People love to buy, but hate to be sold to.

 

[DHK]

MM_advisor,

Good post, but I'm going to pick on just one part of it:

David, to answer your questions...
-MM doesn't want their career agents to sell indexed products b/c those are too risky. The indexed universal life insurance policies I've seen from my clients usually end up with half the cash value as the illustration.

This is bull****. Why? Because MassMutual offers VUL through MML Investors Services. If they offer VUL (with its market-risks), why not IUL (without market risks)? VUL will be far more likely to have "half the cash value" compared to the illustration... than an IUL.

No. It's not because the PRODUCT is too risky. It's because of how easy it is for the AGENT to screw it up. They may explain it poorly, set up the illustration incorrectly, not fund it properly, and many other aspects.

Whole life is much easier to train and doesn't require a lot of service work to keep policies 'on the books'. In addition, it doesn't take a lot of technical training to sell a simple WL policy. That's why career agencies primarily focus on WL products.

That's whole life vs IUL.

What about indexed annuities? Will Mass let you sell those? My guess is not until they have their own. They used to have a "variable indexed annuity", but not any longer. You had to have securities licenses to sell it.

Most mutual companies didn't have a UL (or a VUL) policy until their agents demanded it.


I think that Mass doesn't want the liability of agents selling things that have been sold improperly in the past, so they tout that "we're conservative"... which is really masking the fact that they want to be CONTROLLING.

Well it's their E&O policy, their compliance, and their B/D... so they can make the rules and 'spin' it any way they want.

 

[Justin Bilyj]

I wish Mass annuities were something to write home about...one doesn't even have a cash surrender value which I can't see that being popular with anyone these days.

 

[scagnt83]

Anyone who says that IUL is too risky has no clue what they are talking about. That is the standard line from the big mutuals "it is a risky product that rips people off". That is a load of bs. They dont offer it so they tell agents its bad.

In reality, VUL is a whole lot more risky than IUL. IUL will never lose money due to market losses. The risk to IUL (improper design and funding) is also a risk for VUL or normal UL (as was proved in the late 80s and 90s... and the fallout is still going on today).

As far as IUL policies not performing at illustrated values.... well it depends on what the agent ran it at. If they ran it at a reasonable rate such as 6.5%-7.5%, then most all have actually performed above the illustrated values. Every single IUL I have sold is above what the illustration originally projected. Just reviewed one a few weeks ago with a client, his CV was scheduled to be above basis 3 year from now... but he actually hit that point already this year.


What the Mutuals do not teach you is that WL uses CVAT testing. And that GPT testing (which is available on a UL), actually allows for a higher CV build up and a higher income to be taken from a policy. But of course they do not teach this since their main job is to sell WL.


Also, Guardian allows agents to sell IUL. They even have an inhouse IMO that the agents use and they offer NA, LFG, Axa, Allianz, etc. And they pay street comp on it too.