Help Me Decide Between Guardian or MM, what Should I Be Looking Out For?

David88k

New Member
16
Hello Everyone

I am in the process of trying to decide which direction to go and with which carrier. First let me give you my background to better understand my situation. I was with a big name bank in southern CA for a few years and as time passed by the corporate structure and the branch structure changed completely and I decided it was time to move on. I wanted to get in a field where I did not have to answer to anyone and I was in charge of my own actions so I got licensed and left the bank shortly after.

Being green I had no idea where to begin so I joined an independent insurance group close by in hopes of receiving good training and some guidance on which direction to go. Long story short what ended up happening was that I received no training at all and the only thing I did was a project 200. They helped me get a few sales but my approach was completely wrong and I ended up ruining a lot of good relationships.

Fast forward a few months I saw this guy on TV who is known as the insurance guy in the community. I went to his office and spoke to him hoping to get some training but all that was done was that he got me contracted and that was it. He's a great guy and I have nothing bad to say about him but his no teacher and even though he puts out big numbers all he really does is run his ads on TV and have his staff set up appointments for him. (autopilot)

During this time I spend a lot of time "Getting ready to get ready" and I did a lot of research on this forum about prospecting, marketing and product training. I also was recommended to look into the Insurance Pro Shop which was very helpful. I did their training and I learned their fact finding which has been extremely helpful but now I want to get with a good company and start selling.

I never got the career agent training that a lot of people go through and I think it would be very beneficial for me to also receive that training. I want to represent a big mutual because I do believe in participating whole life, but I also believe in IUL (assuming its right for the customer based on their situation and the policy being reviewed with the customer once a year).

I narrowed everything down to MM vs Guardian. My first choice would be MM because I already have a broker contract and I am familiar with their products but Guardian office might be a better choice and I have an appointment next week to see what they have to offer. I know its not the company and its the office that matters and the office structure so I want to get some feedback on what to expect and what type of information I need to be asking them.

One big issue for me is having a location to put on a business card that has a few conference rooms where I can meet a client if they decide that's what they want to do. Mass offers that and I am sure that Guardian is the same. I looked into Penn Mutual and Ohio National but Penn doesn't have a local office and their marketing director who is the only one close to me didn't really seem very excited about getting together. I think he works out of a home office.


MM has 3 Ga's where I am located. The first office that I went to has been around since 1911 and they have many locations around here with around 120 agents. The other two Ga's have less locations but again that doesn't matter because I don't know what each GA offers. My goal is to visit with each GA to see what type of an offer they put on the table and compare that between the 3 to get the best deal possible. I am trying to decide if I should go Career or if I should go broker. I was told I can do career and if I don't hit my numbers than I can switch over to the broker side. My concern is to know what can be negotiated within the offer.

Career side they have 55% starting and it can go up to 80-83% with bonuses.
Can those bonuses be negotiated? And how high can I get them to go. They mentioned Trippe AAA, Office Allowance, Allowance for Assistant, Persistency Allowance and E & O payed for.

I will ask them in detail what numbers need to be hit in order to qualify for everything and get that in writing to compare it to the other GA offers and make it easier to negotiate.

Guardian GA that I spoke with mentioned salary and a bonus to sign on but I am thinking about asking for a higher commission pay out. At this point a salary would be nice but I feel like with salary comes Micro Management and I am not interested in that. If mass offers salary to compete with guardian can I use that offer to ask for higher comp?




Second is the broker side which is same as career at 55% and the only other variable is the ERA.

Here is the schedule for it that the first GA office offered.
0-24,999 at 15%
25,000-49,999 at 20%
50k-74,999 at 30%
75k-99,999 at 40%
100k+ at 50%

I was told that I can put their business address on my card and use their conference rooms if I need to meet a client inside the office and that's very helpful and I like the fact that I can do that. But again I would still like to get the career training and have an office to go to where there are top producers that I can learn from.



One thing that I can't decide is how beneficial would it be for me to use the mass mutual name on my business card vs lets say my own DBA or the agency name. Does using a know name make a difference in the way customers perceive you? I plan on using a lot of pre approach letters before contacting a potential prospect in a drip marketing style. I will be sending them at least 4-6 pieces of mail and calling them 2 times during that time frame to get in front of them. Would them receiving a letter with a Mass Business card make a better impression vs anything else? Or is the information in the letter that makes a difference? Also I plan on doing a lot of networking, getting involved in community evens and joining different clubs.

Another issue with using a Mass logo is that I have to get everything approved and I do want to use a lot of the Insurance Pro Shops marketing letters and booklets. Their not the most attractive looking pieces but the information in them is good and I feel like it would get a better response than anything that mass has which is talking about a products. If I use the agency name or a DBA then I can do pretty much anything I want.

One thing about Mass is that they don't allow IUL, I was given two conflicting answers but I haven't spoken to the GA yet so that's something to also consider. I don't want to not be able to offer IUL just because of that.

Can someone weigh in on the importance of company recognition?



On the Guardian side. They have 2 agency's here and one of the agency's is actually in the same building as Mass. They also have lots of locations thought the city.

The GA or the managing partner that I spoke to seemed like he was very confident in himself. I was told that the training lasts 6 months and that I will be on salary plus a possible bonus. Again I will consider the salary but am I correct in assuming that salary comes with lots of Micro management? He said that they have in house marketing for agents which I didn't get to discuss in dept. Can someone tell me what he was talking about?

Big thing that I didn't like about what he said was that they want new agents to work with experienced MDRT agents that they have and they want those agents to close the deal for you. My full commission would be split 50% to me, 30 to the experienced agent and 20% to the back office for taking care of the paper work? His excuse was that they don't want agents to be focused on none profit making activities. To me it sounds like a rip off because I have no problem doing the paper work and closing my own deals. Plus my focus is going to be on big whole life or IUL cases. If I was doing lots of term I could understand but not for whole life commission.

Mass mutual managing agents I believe get a override on your commission, so your overall commission is not effected but they still get paid for helping you. I didn't ask them this but am I correct in assuming that this is how it works?

Mass office under this GA has a two week full training course that goes over pretty much everything and I think its a huge plus for them so I need to discuss the guardian side more with them.


Some other questions that I want to ask each office I visit are:


Full expense disclosures (I want to know what I am paying for and what numbers I need to hit to avoid paying expenses)

How many 1-4 year agents they have?

How many 5-10 year agents they have?

Production Minimums?

Ash brokerage contracting. Can someone tell me what type of contracts they give out? Are they negotiable and how much credit do they give you towards your Mass production?

What do benefits look like?

Also what type of prospecting methods their going to teach me?

marketing support?



Am I missing any other questions I should be asking them?



Thank you to anyone that takes the time to respond to this. This forum has helped me tremendously and I want to thank all the members :)
 
Mass dominates the scene where I am from, VERY involved with the community. They are at every networking event. Their systrms are top notch i.e. retirement, di+li, and a solid ltc product. Competitive term, best 10 pay on the market, crappy waiver of premium rider.
 
So far MM is in the winning but I also want to see what Guardian has to offer. Their both great company's but again its the agency and the GA that I need to evaluate.


Thanks for the input
 
Can someone weigh in on the importance of company recognition?

ProducersWeb - Life - The disappearing life insurance agent

Look at how the Top of the Table MDRT members describe themselves. Most have a private company whose name indentifies their services.

The branding of companies is awful. Look at the typical agent’s business card designed and printed in accordance with home office prejudices. Does it emphasize the agent? Does it describe the benefits that can be delivered to clients? Does it place emphasis on the agent — or on the company? (Whose name is the largest and is printed in an emphasis color?) Look at the brochures developed by the companies — those that even have client-oriented brochures or pamphlets. Do they emphasize the role of the agent in helping the client select the most appropriate coverage, or do they emphasize the home office building or the billions of assets under management, which are totally inapplicable to most consumers?

Insurance company advertising is badly designed
Again, the emphasis is on the company and its favorite logos or colors, not on the services that their representatives can give to clients in making responsible and prudent moves to achieve their objectives. Excuse me, but who helps the client determine the proper amount and type of coverage — the ad department, the home office or the agent?

Your action plan
Evaluate the image you now present to prospects. Are you clearly and unequivocally a consultant and not an agent? Have you removed all production-related plaques, trophies and awards? Have you countered by posting items like a code of ethics, legitimate diplomas or designation certificates?

I posted these quotes from that article to show you a different way to think. And it takes time to adjust your mindset to this way of thinking... but the AGENT/ADVISOR is far more valuable than the company name on his card.

A perfect fact-finding meeting would conclude with the prospect asking the question "who do I make this check out to?" They are buying YOU... not your company.

Register and download the free mp3 from this link here:
John Savage System

(Yes, the girl is really annoying.)

John Savage sold millions of premium for a company known as Columbus Mutual - now known as Columbus Life. Have you ever heard of them? Neither has much of anyone else.

John Savage said "People don't buy insurance. People buy people."


As far as which to choose between MM and Guardian... I haven't heard favorable things about Guardian's B/D. However, it's all heresay that I read on another forum that's now 'subscription-based'. I've "heard" that MassMutual has the best B/D to work with out of all the mutual companies - NYL, NWM, MetLife, etc. If securities licensing is in your plans, I think Mass would be the way to go.

For negotiating contracts... I'd think you'd have to show some impressive current production numbers to get them to make exceptions to your favor. Do you have a proven production record - ideally that qualifies you at MDRT or higher production levels? If not, I wouldn't expect them to budge much on compensation. Just something to consider regarding the reality of compensation negotiation.

A couple of other points on MassMutual - Their program with SpecialCare planning is a great program... if and when you're qualified to do this. It's all about planning for families with children with special needs. You'd need to take some specific classes for the ChSNC designation from The American College... but then you'd have the designation and marketing support for your community. A listing in Exceptional Parent magazine, working with the local Easter Seals organization, and I'm sure a few other advantages.

The second specialized course they have is the CFBS - Certified Family Business Specialist - to work with family businesses with their dynamics to do succession planning and other things. Not the same amount of community marketing support, but I'm sure it's a very beneficial program.
 
I started with NYL and then went indy. But over the years I have seen the internal workings of MM & Guardian as well. If I were to do it all over again I would go with Guardian if I had the opportunity.

The base salary as I understand it is partly a draw against future commissions. Generally speaking, you will not be micro-managed anymore by Guardian than you would MM. But at the same time, they both will expect certain things out of you as far as activities and office/training meetings, and that is a good thing for a new agent.

Mass offers one of the best LTCI policies on the market, so that is a huge plus. But Guardian offers the best DI product on the market...

But Guardian does allow for outside business under their contract. They have their own FMO that they own and provide outside contracts through. That is a HUGE plus. They allow the sale of IUL & IAs through this FMO too. Plus it pays basic street commission, so you are not taking a cut in comp by using their FMO. And you could still offer MoO, Trans, MedAmerica, JH, GW LTCI through that FMO I think. They might possibly even allow you to have a independent broker contract with Mass just for LTCI (not sure about that).

Also, Guardian offers their career agents the Living Balance Sheet software for FREE. That is another HUGE plus. The software is built around Emoney360Pro... which is one of the best financial planning software on the market. I highly suggest that you google it and look at the Emoney site. Guardian basically built their own layer on top of the EMoney software that makes it more friendly to life/annuity sales and the middle market.

You will not be able to negotiate a higher comp by giving up the Salary, especially since most of it isnt really a true salary, but a draw.

Comp can vary based on what the GA wants to pay agents. But the one local to me has excellent comp that is actually higher than indy broker comp. The renewals are extremely high. Guardian also offers some of the best group supplemental policies on the market. They also have a much better 401k product than MM.

I would seriously consider Guardian. Whatever you do ask lots of questions to each one.
 
Just curious - last I heard, Living Balance Sheet was $300 per month to the agent.

Do you mean that if the agent subscribes to emoney360pro (probably $300/month) that they get Living Balance Sheet for free on top of their subscription? I know that emoney isn't free and that would make better sense to me.
 
Mass will also allow outside life/di plans if there's a large price difference...and Mass has one of the highest comdex scores so I feel their dividends and pricing are more stable..

With Guardian there does not have to be a price difference or an unfavorable UW decision.

And both Mass & Guardian have a 98 Comdex. Imo Dividends are equal between the two. Term conversion is better with Guardian. Both offer the LTCI Rider on the WL, Mass is a touch better when comparing that Rider.

But imo it is impossible to say that one is more stable than the other. They have the exact same ratings, both have been around since the 1860s, both have never failed to pay a dividend, & both have some of the highest dividends in the industry. Apples to apples imo.

----------

Just curious - last I heard, Living Balance Sheet was $300 per month to the agent.

Do you mean that if the agent subscribes to emoney360pro (probably $300/month) that they get Living Balance Sheet for free on top of their subscription? I know that emoney isn't free and that would make better sense to me.

I was told by my regional office that it was free to their career agents. That might be a choice made at the local/regional level. Or maybe it was specific to me since he was pitching me on joining... lol. I will say that as a former career agent it would take a whole hell of a lot to get me to go back to a career shop... and I was half tempted considering all of the benefits and freedom given by Guardian in my region. Comp was extremely generous, so were renewals... but that varies by region.
 
Last edited:
I'm an agent with MassMutual in San Francisco.
Pros:
-Fortune 100 company with highest credit rating.
-Very profitable due to its many business lines (commercial real estate, owns investment companies like Oppenheimer, Hartford's 401k, Babson Capital, etc.)
-Thus pays the highest dividend rates in the insurance industry
-MM is non-captive which allows me to sell another carrier's cheaper term or disability insurance.
-Training by the wholesalers is pretty good (2x a week).
-Sales manager doesn't micro manage you. Agents don't work from the office everyday.
-Teach you the Sandler sales system and LEAP philosophy (financial planning software) which is a powerful skill set.
-90% commission bonus your first year
-Pays for 50% of your marketing expenses
-The whole life insurance with long term care rider is a fantastic product
-There are several sales contests a year in which you win vacations

Cons:
-They don't offer 30 year term life
-You pay $50/month in rent
-You have to prove yourself before they sponsor your securities license

The biggest advantage about MM is that it pays the highest dividend rate, so it's easy to rollover clients with whole life policies with NYL or Guardian:
2015 Dividend Rates
MassMutual - 7.1%
New York Life - 6.2%
Guardian - 6.05%
North Western - 5.6%
John Hancock - 5.3%
MetLife - 5.1%
 
Last edited:
Back
Top