High Liver Enzymes, CT Scan/Biopsy normal

GreenSky · 08-12-2008, 01:23 PM

I have a 36 year old that is trying to get $1,000,000 in term insurance but has had problems for years.

He went to Banner several years ago (not through me) and they discovered high liver enzymes. The issued a rated policy for $500,000.

A few months ago, my friend had a CT scan along with a biopsy to find out why the enzymes are high. Both test came out completely normal.

He does not drink nor have any other physical issues. The best guess right now is Pru at standard. Other carriers were offering std. to table 2 AFTER they saw the results of the scan and biopsy.

It's obvious he does not have a liver problem yet these carriers seem to hold more weight for blood tests than biopsy.

Is there a carrier that will actually speak with an agent and understand this guy should really be preferred? Going through a GA is not helping.

What do you life experts think?

Rick

HomeService · 08-12-2008, 01:43 PM

Let's just say, when I hit 36 I had the same deal and I quit drinking for a while and the enzymes went down. Are you sure no drinky-poo?

GreenSky · 08-12-2008, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by HomeService

Let's just say, when I hit 36 I had the same deal and I quit drinking for a while and the enzymes went down. Are you sure no drinky-poo?

Absolutely. He doesn't drink at all - never did. That's what makes this so strange.

Rick

bluemarlin08 · 08-12-2008, 03:23 PM

Are his current liver enzymes still elevated? If so, are they abnormal or just elevated? I the tests still show abnormal readings, something is wrong and I would take a std offer with Pru and then recommend a thorough medical workup to get to the cause. I have a similar case currently and it did turn out to be alcohol related, his wife didn't even know. I would assume he has been tested for hepatitis.

moonlightandmargaritas · 08-12-2008, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by bluemarlin08

I would assume he has been tested for hepatitis.

The biopsy would reveal any type of hepatitis, no?

Winter · 08-12-2008, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by bluemarlin08

I the tests still show abnormal readings, something is wrong and I would take a std offer with Pru and then recommend a thorough medical workup to get to the cause.

Ditto. I would take standard in a flash here.

Winter

BrokersAlliance_Life · 08-14-2008, 07:10 PM

There are many reasons to have evaluated LFT (liver functions tests) not just alcohol but also hepatitis, even some medications can cause ELFT’s (Tylenol and Advil are very common culprits).
If the proposed insured has had a follow-up with a gastroenterologist (I would assume he has since he had a biopsy) – and all the results are with deemed “normal” by the attending physician. The applicant is VERY likely insurable. I would say very best Standard.
(NOTE: normal for some is not normal for others – it is based on the averages within the population.)
Anna
Brokers Alliance
800-290-7226 ext 12

LGilmore · 08-14-2008, 07:32 PM

"Is there a carrier that will actually speak with an agent and understand this guy should really be preferred?"

NO.

Ok now that we've answered that question.. put an application in and see what the results are. If they come back clear great, if they come back not so good... he's not so good, both he and you have to get used to it.

As much as you want to or he wants to his body chemistry is his body chemistry.. each condition or reading has a mathmatical value assigned to it based on probability. They plug it in to their formula and spit out an answer. His body chemistry is making the results less than preferred risk. It isn't personal, it's the law of probability...

I've run into these kind of situations before and sometimes ya just have to deal with what is, not what you think it should be.

GreenSky · 08-14-2008, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by BrokersAlliance_Life

There are many reasons to have evaluated LFT (liver functions tests) not just alcohol but also hepatitis, even some medications can cause ELFT’s (Tylenol and Advil are very common culprits).
If the proposed insured has had a follow-up with a gastroenterologist (I would assume he has since he had a biopsy) – and all the results are with deemed “normal” by the attending physician. The applicant is VERY likely insurable. I would say very best Standard.
(NOTE: normal for some is not normal for others – it is based on the averages within the population.)
Anna
Brokers Alliance
800-290-7226 ext 12

Anna:

I've run this by your office and the response is std to table 2. Banner wrote him 6 years ago standard plus and the only thing that changed is now the CT and Biopsy show normal liver. Why the increased rate now?

Rick

LGilmore · 08-15-2008, 01:31 PM

"Why the increased rate now?"

I'm not trying to be an ass or anything as I have clients in the same boat.... You're just beating a dead horse here.

You're asking for a rating any company is not willing to give based on his med history. It is what it is... I'm sorry.

Until you put an app in and they test, nothing can be promised and nothing is certain. A GA can't tell you for sure because they would be simply lying to you. It's going to depend on the carriers underwriting formula and what they'll underwrite at what rate..

Obviously the guy's a nice guy and you support him because he's nice to you as well. However an insurance carrier doesn't care if he's a great guy or the biggest d ick in the world..they just look at is he underwritable and at what cost..

This is why Vets don't really work on their own animals... sometimes you're so emotionally attached you can't use your business head. Your business head in it's knowledge knows the answer to your question...your emotional head just won't let you listen.

Again, I'm sorry and I am not making fun of you. Insurance is math surrounded by emotion.

BrokersAlliance_Life · 08-15-2008, 03:35 PM

Rick,
If you have already done a prelim assessment and the tentative offer came back at Standard to Table B – that is the starting point to give a quote. This is not an offer of insurance. We all know the prelim assessments are subject to complete underwriting.
When given a range such as Standard to Table B – standard is possible but more likely Table B. The actual offer can certainly be more than Table B or even a decline.
Anna
X112

GreenSky · 08-15-2008, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by LGilmore

"Why the increased rate now?"

I'm not trying to be an ass or anything as I have clients in the same boat.... You're just beating a dead horse here.

You're asking for a rating any company is not willing to give based on his med history. It is what it is... I'm sorry.

Until you put an app in and they test, nothing can be promised and nothing is certain. A GA can't tell you for sure because they would be simply lying to you. It's going to depend on the carriers underwriting formula and what they'll underwrite at what rate..

Obviously the guy's a nice guy and you support him because he's nice to you as well. However an insurance carrier doesn't care if he's a great guy or the biggest d ick in the world..they just look at is he underwritable and at what cost..

This is why Vets don't really work on their own animals... sometimes you're so emotionally attached you can't use your business head. Your business head in it's knowledge knows the answer to your question...your emotional head just won't let you listen.

Again, I'm sorry and I am not making fun of you. Insurance is math surrounded by emotion.

Just an FYI, this morning Sagicor offered preferred!

Guess that dead horse I've been beating wasn't quite dead.

Rick

LGilmore · 08-15-2008, 06:05 PM

"Just an FYI, this morning Just an FYI, this morning Sagicor offered preferred!

The st micheals or barbatos office?

Is it a quote or an actual policy?

If it's an actual policy ready to be delivered congrats... if it's a quote... well..

GreenSky · 08-15-2008, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by LGilmore

"Just an FYI, this morning Just an FYI, this morning Sagicor offered preferred!

The st micheals or barbatos office?

Is it a quote or an actual policy?

If it's an actual policy ready to be delivered congrats... if it's a quote... well..

Of course it's a quote. Just like Banner gave me a quote. But it came from underwriting so it's certainly a better "offer" than anyone else.

Let's see if they come through with a policy at that price.

Rick

BrokersAlliance_Life · 08-15-2008, 08:00 PM

[COLOR=black][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']FYI - Sagicor has been giving good prelim offers.[/font][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Worthly to note: prelim assessments are only as good as the information provided. Preferred is possbile, not likely probable though. Give it a shot - you may want to look at the Standard rate with Sagicor compared to the other tentative offers comparing the premiums within the rates various classes. [/font][/COLOR]

Anna
X112

LGilmore · 08-15-2008, 08:35 PM

"Of course it's a quote. Just like Banner gave me a quote. But it came from underwriting so it's certainly a better "offer" than anyone else"

Don't be gettin all mad and all...

When the policy's back please let us know.

Even from underwriting unless you've given them the chart notes and lab results and current lab results ..it's just a quote. When it's a policy that is issued preferred then a double pat on the back..

Good luck.

GreenSky · 08-15-2008, 09:32 PM

[quote=LGilmore;88989When it's a policy that is issued preferred then a double pat on the back..

Good luck.[/quote]

Thanks. I know it's still an uphill battle.

By the way, my client doesn't want to apply with Sagicor but wants to wait for Banner to change their mind apparently based upon his "pleading." Jesus. What an idiot!

Rick

*STIBROKER@AUSTIN.RR.COM* · 08-15-2008, 10:00 PM

Aig with a new exam.....and no drinks 3 days before exam....

LGilmore · 08-15-2008, 10:06 PM

"with Sagicor but wants to wait for Banner to change their mind apparently based upon his "pleading."

Insurance is such an emotional product, but it's going to come down to a scientific formula based on his body and health history. I deal with simular situation these days myself.

Every so often I end up talking with a service rep where I process my apps. She kinda blunt force trammas my head and then for some unknown reason, I can go to the client and get straightforward without alot of empathy anymore and lay it out flat on the ground. Somehow it works.

GreenSky · 08-15-2008, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by STIBROKER@AUSTIN.RR.COM

aig with a new exam.....and no drinks 3 days before exam....

He doesn't drink and the enzymes have been high for 8 years. New exam won't help.

Rick