I see nothing respectful about your words, nor do I see a person who is open-minded enough to have such an "argument".
You mock a persons belief and the fact that some do believe that God still heals people.
You mock something you don't understand. That's human nature. Your true colors really shine.
You say you live a moral life. How about defining morality for us?
I'm open-minded enough to have a discussion. I have a great deal of respect for the opinions of others as would never mock their beliefs.
I posted a JOKE. I have told jokes about death, religion, races, etc. It does not mean that I mock anyone.
You believe that god can heal. Great! Mind over matter is a wonderful thing. If your belief gives you strength, go for it.
Just because I disagree with you does not mean I don't understand. I disagree with our involvement in Iraq. Does that mean I don't understand? A person that has no argument always states "you don't understand." My son started saying that when he was quite young.
I'm moral enough to treat people as if they are my mother. I never lie, cheat or steal. And I mean NEVER. The only time I don't tell the truth is to spare someone's feelings. I sell the best product given the situation. This means the best product regardless of the amount of commission.
I have not made any personal attack on your religion, nor on you. My feelings about god are exactly the same as I feel about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and natural blonds. None of them actually exist.
But I'll defend your right to believe anything you like.
Rick
------------------------------------ ILIAA
Training, Community, Support, and Success Independent Life Insurance Agents Assn rick@iliaa.org
While science is ever changing, I suggest those who believe that the new testament of the bible is unchanged do some research on the council of Nicea where the codification of that testament took place - and look at exactly how many existing scriptures were, shall we say, left out of the codification because they didn't exactly support the proposition of the church to be created at that time (300 AD). Science will always change as man learns more about it. The codified bible does not change simply because a large group of rival and warring factions came together under direct orders from a pagan emporer to codify a religion to stop the bloodshed. It does change though, when the other scriptures and writings are uncovered as they have been in the last 100 years.
Originally Posted by Dave020
I would futher suggest that those who place faith in the new testament of the bible spend at least some time studying the Gnostic scriptures as well. They are very interesting and were written by people much closer to the events than those currently in the new testament (like Mary Magdelene and Judas Iscariot). The scriptures currently deemed first hand were actually written between 67 AD and 137 AD - long after the events occured and by people who were not involved.
I am broadly read, and experienced, from Catholicism to Primitive Baptist, from Ancient Eastern Mysticism to Modern New Age Thinking. Suffice it to say, that those writings of which you speak were rejected then, and they are being rejected as we "rediscover" them, for the same reasons. For example, if someone can make a blockbuster book/movie from research that was done over hundreds of years ago resulting in faulty conclusions, then so be it, that seems to be the habit of our unique culture. Unregulated talk show hosts and authors have nothing on imaginative cinematographers who employ poetic license with faulty research. I'll leave it at that. There are PLENTY of books written by folks more knowledgeable than I, that Sam's servers would not have room to hold. And I'm sure no one is THAT interested. If so, I would advise you to consider the primary sources, not twice or thrice removed movies, novels, books, opinions, etc.
I realize that it is human nature to want "proof" (as we humans define it), and I believe there is a place for that, for someone who is GENUINELY seeking the Person Who has sought him first. By that I mean, we do not seek God. We can't.
"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11)
He seeks us. Is He seeking you?
"[COLOR=#ff0000]And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.[/COLOR]" (John 12:32)
So, we can debate until the cows come home, but any amount of logic, history, research, etc. is to absolutely no avail without the "Hound of Heaven" on your trail. Unfortunately, if you are not earnestly seeking Him because He is drawing you, then you are searching in vain. Was Paul searching for Christ on the Damascus Road? He was a Roman citizen and a "Pharisee of the Pharisees" and had been taught by Gamaliel himself. He was as religious as you could get and had sought God through every means available to him. Who found whom? (Acts chapter 9)
Listen, I have a strong faith and I have strong facts to back it up. It has been a long time in coming, and not an easy task. And it is an ongoing journey. I say that to say this:
I am a newbie at insurance. I need to sell and provide for my family. I humbly bow at the feet of you guys on this forum and everyone has been very helpful. I will continue to learn and put into practice what I can absorb. But I need to get and stay busy. I don't see how I'll have much time to post here.
Therefore, I know it is not productive to debate folks who are also firm in their beliefs, whatever they may be. At least it is not productive for me. HOWEVER, IF God is calling you, IF you genuinely have questions about the Christian Faith, I will certainly be glad to help anyone in whatever small way I can. I can only speak from my experiences in God dealing with me in my life, and disciplining me to pay attention to what He said. I have found that He says what he means, and means what he says. You know how to find me.
As for the whole "debate" over manuscript evidence, the history and methods of textual criticism (German rationalism etc.), the extant copies of manuscripts we have (Masoretic, Byzantine, Septuagent, etc. etc.), I have read books and attended classes and seminars on these topics. No matter the arguments about "early copies" and politcal meanderings, I am satisfied with LATE koine greek copies (try that one on! - there is a VERY GOOD reason) and that we have the Word of God in English. Do you really think us humans can thwart His will? (Lord knows we've tried, you've mentioned a few).
So, I will be glad to privately or publicly converse with anyone and lead them toward the primary sources whereby they may investigate and satiate the thirst they have for the things of God. But if God has not given you that thirst...
Oh, coupla more things:
When you die, your body of flesh will be dead but your soul will still be alive. You do have a soul, don't you? I don't know what kind of answer athiests have for that, but bottom line, you are on the wrong side of that bet, if you are gambling (which is what you are doing with no faith). Now if you say you DO have faith, it is just in science/evolution/mankind/whatever, then we have come full circle and have arrived back at the original problem. But at least it would be more accurate. Quantum physicists are "proving" more and more that we can't actually "prove" anything, since by performing the experiment, we are PART of the experiment and are skewing the results. So what's left?
Shepherd's gambit: If you are right, I will die and cease to exist and know nothing. Nothing gained, nothing lost, absolute ultimate futility. However, (I will grant you 2 capital letters) IF the Bible is right, what then is your eternal state, even right now, by your own free will choice, not God's?
And finally this: I'm changing my Avatar. I am "out" now. I'm a true Christian (nowhere near perfect) in America. True Freedom (for now). Bash me, I can take it. I'm the real thing. Authentic Believer.
------------------------------------ Nature has established patterns originating in the return of events, but only for the most part. -- Gottfried von Leibniz 1703 Under similar conditions, the occurrence (or non-occurrence) of an event in the future will follow the same pattern as was observed in the past. -- Jacob Bernoulli Ars Conjectandi 1713
All of the research that Dan Brown "borrowed" for the Da Vinci Code LOL.It is a good read and very enlightening and they did some very thorough research on it all.
The so called research behind this book falls on itself once put up to any examination at all. It a novel that was basically done by people that had no sense of Biblical history. The books that were choosen to go into the NT in and around 300AD were choosen because they were done by the actual participants in their natural language and first hand account. Now most of the other books that are reference are written in a manner that isn't written in first person or seems to be against what the other books preach as a general outline, in other words we know that the books of Paul, John and Peter were written by them so when other books come along with no known author written in second party and doesn't hold to the general outline of the other authors one would naturally assume something is wrong. Yet there are other bibles such as the East Orthodox Church, much of which holds the same general lines as the King James Version or the earlier versions.
As far as Morality, I don't see that as any prerequisite, what counts is the love for God. I wouldn't know how to explain David if morality counted for anything.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And there isn't a shred of evidence for the existence of a supernatural being. To my innocent mind it appears that religion is wishful thinking and speculation. Just because it feels good doesn't mean it's true. Religion is man's ultimate act of arrogance and is no guarantee of morality, in fact, history has shown it to be quite the opposite. This thinking in no way diminishes my wonder of existence. It's just that I respectfully decline to participate in the religious psychodrama. Just a few thoughts.
By the way, I thought the first post was amusing as I have had health insurance prospects proclaim that if they get sick Jesus will heal them.
I am broadly read, and experienced, from Catholicism to Primitive Baptist, from Ancient Eastern Mysticism to Modern New Age Thinking. Suffice it to say, that those writings of which you speak were rejected then, and they are being rejected as we "rediscover" them, for the same reasons. For example, if someone can make a blockbuster book/movie from research that was done over hundreds of years ago resulting in faulty conclusions, then so be it, that seems to be the habit of our unique culture. Unregulated talk show hosts and authors have nothing on imaginative cinematographers who employ poetic license with faulty research. I'll leave it at that. There are PLENTY of books written by folks more knowledgeable than I, that Sam's servers would not have room to hold. And I'm sure no one is THAT interested. If so, I would advise you to consider the primary sources, not twice or thrice removed movies, novels, books, opinions, etc.
I realize that it is human nature to want "proof" (as we humans define it), and I believe there is a place for that, for someone who is GENUINELY seeking the Person Who has sought him first. By that I mean, we do not seek God. We can't.
"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11)
He seeks us. Is He seeking you?
"[COLOR=#ff0000]And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.[/COLOR]" (John 12:32)
So, we can debate until the cows come home, but any amount of logic, history, research, etc. is to absolutely no avail without the "Hound of Heaven" on your trail. Unfortunately, if you are not earnestly seeking Him because He is drawing you, then you are searching in vain. Was Paul searching for Christ on the Damascus Road? He was a Roman citizen and a "Pharisee of the Pharisees" and had been taught by Gamaliel himself. He was as religious as you could get and had sought God through every means available to him. Who found whom? (Acts chapter 9)
Listen, I have a strong faith and I have strong facts to back it up. It has been a long time in coming, and not an easy task. And it is an ongoing journey. I say that to say this:
I am a newbie at insurance. I need to sell and provide for my family. I humbly bow at the feet of you guys on this forum and everyone has been very helpful. I will continue to learn and put into practice what I can absorb. But I need to get and stay busy. I don't see how I'll have much time to post here.
Therefore, I know it is not productive to debate folks who are also firm in their beliefs, whatever they may be. At least it is not productive for me. HOWEVER, IF God is calling you, IF you genuinely have questions about the Christian Faith, I will certainly be glad to help anyone in whatever small way I can. I can only speak from my experiences in God dealing with me in my life, and disciplining me to pay attention to what He said. I have found that He says what he means, and means what he says. You know how to find me.
As for the whole "debate" over manuscript evidence, the history and methods of textual criticism (German rationalism etc.), the extant copies of manuscripts we have (Masoretic, Byzantine, Septuagent, etc. etc.), I have read books and attended classes and seminars on these topics. No matter the arguments about "early copies" and politcal meanderings, I am satisfied with LATE koine greek copies (try that one on! - there is a VERY GOOD reason) and that we have the Word of God in English. Do you really think us humans can thwart His will? (Lord knows we've tried, you've mentioned a few).
So, I will be glad to privately or publicly converse with anyone and lead them toward the primary sources whereby they may investigate and satiate the thirst they have for the things of God. But if God has not given you that thirst...
Oh, coupla more things:
When you die, your body of flesh will be dead but your soul will still be alive. You do have a soul, don't you? I don't know what kind of answer athiests have for that, but bottom line, you are on the wrong side of that bet, if you are gambling (which is what you are doing with no faith). Now if you say you DO have faith, it is just in science/evolution/mankind/whatever, then we have come full circle and have arrived back at the original problem. But at least it would be more accurate. Quantum physicists are "proving" more and more that we can't actually "prove" anything, since by performing the experiment, we are PART of the experiment and are skewing the results. So what's left?
Shepherd's gambit: If you are right, I will die and cease to exist and know nothing. Nothing gained, nothing lost, absolute ultimate futility. However, (I will grant you 2 capital letters) IF the Bible is right, what then is your eternal state, even right now, by your own free will choice, not God's?
And finally this: I'm changing my Avatar. I am "out" now. I'm a true Christian (nowhere near perfect) in America. True Freedom (for now). Bash me, I can take it. I'm the real thing. Authentic Believer.
Last edited by insuremojo : 05-29-2007 at 07:33 PM.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And there isn't a shred of evidence for the existence of a supernatural being. To my innocent mind it appears that religion is wishful thinking and speculation. Just because it feels good doesn't mean it's true. Religion is man's ultimate act of arrogance and is no guarantee of morality, in fact, history has shown it to be quite the opposite. This thinking in no way diminishes my wonder of existence. It's just that I respectfully decline to participate in the religious psychodrama. Just a few thoughts.
By the way, I thought the first post was amusing as I have had health insurance prospects proclaim that if they get sick Jesus will heal them.
The physical universe is infinitely detailed, we are only just beginning to search it out and find out the intricasies of the microcosm, and the ecstacies of the macrocosm we call space. Even though mankind can begin to clone things, he has yet to (and in my opinion will never) be able to create something ex nihilo (from nothing). And yet the universe is here. Where did it come from? Does not it's amazingly intricate (miraculous) DESIGN beg a designER?
I am looking at an exquisite painting on my wall (well, it's not THAT great). However, there is not a shred of evidence for miles of a painter around here. Or is there? Is not the painting evidence that there was a paintER?
So, there is no problem linking something as simple as a painting to evidence of a paintER, but the universe just arrived by accident/chance/evolution? Where's your evidence?
There are no transitional forms, that is a known fact to all but those in denial. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, it is taken on FAITH in the theory. Therefore evolution/atheism qualifies as a religion, since that is what you BELIEVE, and it is what determines your worldview from which flows your "pattern of living", your lifestyle direction or choices, your thoughts and behaviour, if you will. When you read your science text, you BELIEVE the eyewitness accounts of the scientists. When I read the text of my Bible, I BELIEVE the eyewitness accounts of those who were there.
If one believes in God, then the first verse of the Bible is taken literally, "In the beginning God created...". If not, then what? "In the beginning, slime in the ocean"? But when did evolution stop and devolution begin? Because everywhere you look, things are devolving, not evolving (I won't mention the gene pool). The Law of Entropy. The Second Law of Thermodynamics. It's common knowledge that THIS is the modus operandi of the universe.
So, I would say that Christianity has INFINITELY more proof than any other worldview. As has been mentioned before, there are MANY lawyers, journalists, etc. who set out to prove differently, and came to their own shocking conclusions otherwise. Christianity, and especially the resurrection of Jesus Christ, has more evidence than any other historical fact; research it yourself, you will be overwhelmed with the evidence. IF you are TRULY interested in the debate, I implore you to seek out those writings and make your own judgement after you have the complete evidence from both sides. As I mentioned before, at least in my case, as a reformed atheist who had been born that way, I already had plenty of evidence for that worldview, as it is predominantly taught in our public schools and colleges.
Honestly seek the answer to the debate with full knowledge gained, and you might find enough "evidence" to tip the scale in the favor of God/Creation vs. evolution/atheism.
But that still wouldn't make you a Christian. That's another thread, I'm afraid. And in fact you don't need any evidence at all to be a Christian. But I did. I'm hardheaded.
dislaimer: Hey, I'm just passing along some thoughts to be helpful. In no way am I trying to change you, I don't know you, that is between you and...well...God. I am accountable to God for myself, and believe me, that is a full-time job, and I do poorly at it. Thank God He is forgiving! I just like to share some things that have been very helpful to me over the years. Take it or leave it. I appreciate the dialogue!
Just because we don't know the answer (how the universe began; what came before the big bang, etc), does NOT become any evidence there is a god.
You can't prove the existance of god just because it can't be proven god does not exist.
By the way, there are how many different Christian "sects". If one is right, then the rest are wrong. How do I know that Catholics are right? What about Methodists?
This is not the venue to continue this discussion. Let me attempt a few parting comments. I did not proclaim to be an atheist; I am a skeptic and a free thinker. JSF, we are actually of the same mind. You're an unbeliever, just like me. Of all the holy books/religions that you reject I only reject one more book/religion than you do. We are all skeptics and atheists when it comes to someone else's religion. I'll bet there isn't church member anywhere who doesn't think all supernatural beliefs are goofy--except for the one he believes.
You missed one step in evolution/de-evolution. It's involution. The stuff first needs to be created in the cosmic furnaces. We are literally made of stardust. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust. No?
A forgiving God? You mean the all-merciful God who loves you so much he is waiting to burn you forever?
One of my favorites: "Man is certainly stark mad; he cannot make a worm, yet he will make gods by the dozen." -Michel de Montaigne, sometime in the 1500's.
I may not have religious faith but what I do have is great respect for the unknown and the courage to say "I don't know". C'mon, let's say it together. "I don't know". There, that wasn't hard. Was it?
By the way, there are how many different Christian "sects". If one is right, then the rest are wrong. How do I know that Catholics are right? What about Methodists?
Maybe the Scientologists? Okay, maybe not them.
Perhaps radical Islam is the true religion.
Or maybe I'm right and there is no god.
Rick
You "prove" what (who) is right by the Bible. "...and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11)
One of Satan's tools is to cause division in the church, and all too frequently he is successful, more so with the biblically illiterate. He accomplishes it by questioning God's Word "...Yea, hath God said...?" (Genesis 3:1) <-- note how early this began.
I'll bet there isn't church member anywhere who doesn't think all supernatural beliefs are goofy--except for the one he believes.
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
Originally Posted by jacodaro
I may not have religious faith but what I do have is great respect for the unknown and the courage to say "I don't know". C'mon, let's say it together. "I don't know". There, that wasn't hard. Was it?
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13) emphasis added
A forgiving God? You mean the all-merciful God who loves you so much he is waiting to burn you forever?
Hell was created for the angels who rebelled (chief is Satan). The bible says "hell hath enlarged itself" since by sin and rebellion man decided to also attend.
"[COLOR=#ff0000]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/COLOR]" (John 3:18) emphasis added
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." (Hebrews 9:22)
Where is your sacrifice for sin?
<pause and think>
"...God will provide himself a lamb..." (Genesis 22:8)
The merciful God has made himself an infinitely costly way out and paid the price Himself:
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Galatians 3:13)
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many..." (Hebrews 9:27,28)
You are correct, this is not the proper venue for this discourse, however, I am not the Original Poster, but rather a simple responder. If this topic should be banned, I wish everyone the best.
And I will leave you with this, my prayer:
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version.) (2 Co 5:17-21). Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
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