Insurance Agent Forum

[TXINSURANCE]

I never minded Carter, but his latest book was a joke.

The prisoners that were held in Iran might have a different view on Carter.

And, for what it is worth, our family is a "mixed" marriage. So far so good.

Yep same here... With American divorce rates where they are - how could it be any worse? My wifes culture severely frowns on divorce - if it doesn't work out ever odds are I screwed up, and bad.

[CHUMPS FROM OXFORD]

"The prisoners that were held in Iran might have a different view on Carter."

I don't let Carter off the hook for that. But, Iran was..and still is... the biggest threat to Western Civilization today.

[James]

Originally Posted by al3

We've seen church bombings and temple arsons.
Al

Yes, much like Clinton, when he talked about all those Black Church's being burnt down when he was growing up in his State. Problem was, there was no Black Church burnt down in his State when he was growing up. Gee, I guess we can lay down all problems of Man on Christianity. Yet, we can look at Slavery. Black Tribes in reality started it by enslaving other Blacks not in their tribe but in a competeing tribe. Muslim's lead the Slave Trade and too this day slavery is a cultural part of many people in Africa and the ME. While I'm not going to defend the entire history of say the Catholic Church, but in the bigger picture the people of Christianity eventually created societies far more tolerant then those other religions as say Islam which still seems to be stuck in 7th century thinking.

You do know once the Arabic Poeple's lead the world in Art, Science and Political Leadership, that stopped about the time of the rise of Islam and the Quaran. Wonder if there is a connection there someplace?

[TXINSURANCE]

I don't let Carter off the hook for that. But, Iran was..and still is... the biggest threat to Western Civilization today.

Iran hasn't invaded any country in over 2000 years, the people (not government) are largely pro U.S. and if it wasn't for the radical government.

We have a long history of screwing up Iran with the British, and now a new history of screwing up Iraq.

[ThinkBig]

Its funny, all this talk of Christman Trees and Jews and hating Christians, seems a few could do well to look at their own history before running around condemning other's.

When the Jews won a victory in ancient times, they killed everyone, men, women, babies, old ladies, even the family dogs weren't safe. So Al, don't be so quick to point your finger.

The Christmas tree's origins are pagan, and in fact, there is a scripture which specifically says not to put up a tree and decorate it as the pagans do....but most religous christians base their doctrine on tradition, not scripture. Don't read more into this statement than what is there.

I am a Christian.

I am not religeous.

The Christian religion is responsible for many wrongs. Christianity is not a religion.

Al obviously doesn't understand much about Christian beliefs, because Al would know better. Christians in general, especially the right wing religeous nuts, have an eternal affinity for Jews (ie it is believed that America's greatness is a result of God's blessing for favorable treatment of Jews and Isreal).

There is an old truism which states that the closer a person or a group is to an actual event the better their understanding of it. George Washington and Ben Franklin and others of their day encouraged Bible reading and prayer in schools. They knew that for a free society to exist, their must be a foundation of good character and morals in its citizens. In the Supreme Court, the Ten Commandments are engraved in stone. The closer you get to the writers of the constitution, the more you see God being named in public.

If you pay attention to history, its quite obvious that liberalism leads to more laws, which creates a repeating cycle that eventually ends in tyranny. Or, liberals will install a tyrant by force (Cuba).

[CHUMPS FROM OXFORD]

"Iran hasn't invaded any country in over 2000 years, the people (not government) are largely pro U.S. and if it wasn't for the radical government."

Quite true about the people there. I have been there to see it. But Iran is fighting many wars "by proxy." Let's face it. You see their fingerprints in many places.

[ThinkBig]

Iranians have been in Iraq causing problems. Iranians have been found in Palestinian camps stirring up trouble. Iranian weapons have been found in various terrorist camps around the world.

Nah, those Iranians never bother anybody.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by ThinkBig

Iranians have been in Iraq causing problems. Iranians have been found in Palestinian camps stirring up trouble. Iranian weapons have been found in various terrorist camps around the world.

Nah, those Iranians never bother anybody.

Frigging Ruskies just sold the Iranians anti-aircraft missiles. This is the "international community" that we are supposed to throw our lot in with rather than going it alone. The Russians are whores. Iran announces that it is developing nuclear power and that Israel needs to be taken off the map. Russian response was to sell them enriched uraniam. They are whores.

Winter

[CHUMPS FROM OXFORD]

Putin has been a tremendous disappointment. At first, he appeared to be playing his cards honestly. Now...well, he has finagled his way to "stay in power" along with a few other questionable tactics.

I'm with Kasparov. Let's "check-mate" this guy.

[James]

Originally Posted by Winter

Frigging Ruskies just sold the Iranians anti-aircraft missiles. This is the "international community" that we are supposed to throw our lot in with rather than going it alone. The Russians are whores. Iran announces that it is developing nuclear power and that Israel needs to be taken off the map. Russian response was to sell them enriched uraniam. They are whores.

Winter

To be the Devil's Advocate, one could say Russia view this as paying us back when we gave them (Afghanistan's) Stingers (good ole' Charlie Wilson again) to defeat and kill many thousands of Russians.

[James]

Originally Posted by CHUMPS FROM OXFORD

Putin has been a tremendous disappointment. At first, he appeared to be playing his cards honestly. Now...well, he has finagled his way to "stay in power" along with a few other questionable tactics.

I'm with Kasparov. Let's "check-mate" this guy.

One of Bush's grave mistakes, Putin is all about rebuilding Russia as a World Power again. Well, that is if Russia (USSR) ever was truly a World Power or simply propped up by the West as a convienent Enemy to be defeated and keep the Military Complex going.

Ps, I just have that Devil Advocate thing going!

[Winter]

Originally Posted by James

To be the Devil's Advocate, one could say Russia view this as paying us back when we gave them (Afghanistan's) Stingers (good ole' Charlie Wilson again) to defeat and kill many thousands of Russians.

The russians armed north vietnam to the hilt, including migs which resulted in the death of many Americans as well.

In any case, it was not the russian army that was in Afghanistan it was the Soviet Army and we were fighting the expansion of communism. At one time we thought those days were over and Putin was a different animal. Apparently, not so. Russia has several islamic revolutions going in the breakaway provinces and yet he is whoring around with the Iranians who are supplying all of the islamic hotheads in Russia. Smart Putin, real frigging smart. Goddam whore. The Saudis are snakes too and tried playing both sides and the middle and they ended out in Al Quada's crosshairs just as Russia is.

Now we have Europe almost totally encircled. We have Iranian wackos, the growing islamic rebellions in the former Soviet Union, and al Queda has formed alliances in North Africa with the Algerian and Moroccan wackos. Just across the Mediteranean you have Spain which is totally useless and surrendered to Al Queda after the Madrid bombings nad withdrew from Iraq. Next door, France with its seething Muslim population getting more and more explosive and rioting each year and the French like deer in the headlights. Not good.

Winter

[Winter]

Originally Posted by James

One of Bush's grave mistakes, Putin is all about rebuilding Russia as a World Power again. Well, that is if Russia (USSR) ever was truly a World Power or simply propped up by the West as a convienent Enemy to be defeated and keep the Military Complex going.

Ps, I just have that Devil Advocate thing going!

Yup, just like we have propped up the war on terror for the same reasons. That theory falls short though when your countrymen are splattered on the sidewalks in New York, and the very epi-center of military command in Washington is attacked. Lay off the Kool-Aid. The reason the Ruskies did not take over the world is because they were stopped.

Winter

[James]

Originally Posted by Winter

Yup, just like we have propped up the war on terror for the same reasons. That theory falls short though when your countrymen are splattered on the sidewalks in New York, and the very epi-center of military command in Washington is attacked. Lay off the Kool-Aid. The reason the Ruskies did not take over the world is because they were stopped.

Winter

Well, my comment was only as a Devil's Advocate, yet I would make the argument that Russia or the USSR never was a true World Power as history has established it. Without a viable economy no Nation can sustain power, something that Russia or the USSR never had. The worst threat China has today is its potential and growing economy. As all Empires of the past, Rome, Great Britian and all others had large and growing economies.

The Ruskies never had a chance nor will they in the future. Make no doubt about it, when France and other European Nations have their backs up against the wall, they will respond. More then likely it will not be pretty, there is no shortage of hate and vengence that I can see within European Nations. Islam will be beaten back like it has in the past.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by James

Well, my comment was only as a Devil's Advocate, yet I would make the argument that Russia or the USSR never was a true World Power as history has established it. Without a viable economy no Nation can sustain power, something that Russia or the USSR never had. Islam will be beaten back like it has in the past.

But so what. We can make the argument that Afghanistan would never have been a world power so dont worry about anything going on there. Or the same with dinky run down Cuba, except that they had missiles in our face. They needed to be stopped in the same way that Israel needs to worry about Iran independent of whether Iran ever becomes a world power.

Islam may or may not be beaten back like it has in the past. Even if that were true, the question is how far will it go before it is beaten back and where does it go back to now that it is entrenched in most countries. They are not going to be driven out of Europe like the old days and then Christendom will prevail. Islam is part of Europe now (just like the old days) and Christendom is gone from many of the countries as a significant force. Radical Islam is on the move bigtime and making very good progress.

Winter

[SME]

First off my father is a baptist minister and he has never forced someone into a religion. Not all Baptist ministers are bible thumpers, most are nice people who believe that should share the thing that makes them happy. Huckabee has discussed very little of his religious belief but the press just like you are looking for any reason to label him as a religous fanatic. Why would it be so bad to have a President that had morals, and a strong standing of what is right and wrong?

You (like so many others) are mistaken regarding the separation of church and state. The provision exists to keep the government out of religion not to keep religion out of government. This country was founded by christians of many different faiths, and is based on thier ideals. How can we remove the christian ideals without destroying the very foundation of our country. Remember that it is because of religous persecution that America was founded in the first place. Also the president should never have that much power. There are checks and balances within the system that prevent what you are discussing.

As for the Japanese camps, nothing is perfect, not even the land of freedom. Every country has to learn from it's mistakes, and it was a mistake. America is a more tolerant place than it has been in the past because we have learned from our history.

It is strange that around this time of year we seem to idolize a time in our history when so many people were being repressed. My generation especially seems to look back at the 50's and 60's with a type of nostalgia that is slightly foreboding.

[al3]

[quote=SME;44103]

You (like so many others) are mistaken regarding the separation of church and state. The provision exists to keep the government out of religion not to keep religion out of government.

When I got my MA in Government from William and Mary, that's not how it was taught to me. Maybe it is taught differently these days.

So you would be fine with a state sanctioned religion. That would fit your definition of "religion in government." How about only Baptists could hold government jobs? Does that work for you too? How about ONLY one religions icons are allowed to be displayed in government buildings and schools? That would be a good example of religion in government.

Personally, I never met a born-again Pentecostal who didn't believe "My religion is better than yours" and who wouldn't do all they could to convert non-believers... by force if they were allowed. It is not enough for them to practice their own faith, they have this avowed mission to convince, and preach, and convert those who are not, as they say, "in the fold."

I find it insulting for the Witnesses and Latter Day Saints to come to my door and insinuate that the religion practiced in my home is somehow inferior and that I need to listen to their version.

But I'm afraid that is what is going to happen if we get a President Huckabilly. Except it won't be freshly scrubbed girls in long dresses or clean cut young boys at the door, it will be the HuckGestapo made up of CIA, FBI, ATF agents, wanting to know why you didn't show up for church last Sunday.... because they were taking pix (similar to how the CIA and FBI spied on anti-Vietnam demonstrators.)

It could happen. Easily. There are at least 40 million fervent Christians who would support those kinds of things... and Huckabilly represents them all... even panders to them with his "bookshelf cross" advertisement.

This country was founded by christians of many different faiths, and is based on thier ideals. How can we remove the christian ideals without destroying the very foundation of our country.

And so all those Jewish people who came from the pales of Russia and Poland didn't contribute to the 'ideals' of this country? All of the Chinese people who built the railroads were not part of the "American Ideal?" The huge number of Hindus and Muslims are also outside you concept of the American experience?

Remember that it is because of religous persecution that America was founded in the first place.

What history book did you get that out of? Those who came here because they were persecuted simply started persecuting others! This country was founded on the principal of independence from England. There is nothing in the Dec. of Ind. that I know of that mentions religion. The word does not even occur in the document. It's about "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" not about freedom to worship as you wish.

Indeed, even in the Constitution itself there is no mention of religion. It was added later on via the Bill of Rights... after it was ratified.

Also the president should never have that much power. There are checks and balances within the system that prevent what you are discussing.

You would hope. They didn't work for the Japanese in the 1940s. It has never prevented fire-bombings of Jewish temples or Islamic Mosques. I think that "freedom of religion" in this country means "You are free to pray... but only to MY god or icon... not your own."

America is a more tolerant place than it has been in the past because we have learned from our history.

But I believe that if we elect a bible-thumping president that we will regress to what Alabama was in the 1920s. You really want to take that chance?

My generation especially seems to look back at the 50's and 60's with a type of nostalgia that is slightly foreboding.

The 50s were great if you were white, spoke English, were a Christian, and conformed to middle class values. It was not so great if you were a Negro, or a Puerto Rican, or a Jew (outside of New York City), or most anyone else... especially in the South.

Out of the 50s came the children of the 60s, and from us came the changes (mostly good, some terrible) that have shaped our country and culture since.

I'm not saying that the Huckabilly's of this country should not be in politics. They have just as much right as anyone else. I'm saying that if we value what liberty and freedom we have, a born-again, right-wing, my God, not your God, Christian theocracy is not such a good idea for anyone who is NOT a Christian.

I'm afraid. Why? I know my history.... and I've lived through a fair amount of it having been born in 1947. My hope is that Americans will choose a sensible, middle of the road, non-religious person to lead the country. There is enough that divides us. We don't need another Thirty Years War! (read your history!)

Al

[Winter]

[quote=al3;44111]

Originally Posted by SME

There is nothing in the Dec. of Ind. that I know of that mentions religion. The word does not even occur in the document.

Al

You think maybe that that part about the inalienable rights being "endowed by the Creator" might come close to mentioning religion or sanctioning the idea that it is okay to refer to God?

Winter

[al3]

[quote=Winter;44115]

Originally Posted by al3

You think maybe that that part about the inalienable rights being "endowed by the Creator" might come close to mentioning religion or sanctioning the idea that it is okay to refer to God?

Winter

Not really. You know I've never quite understood Christians. You don't see Jews or Hindus or Buddhists or Taoists or any of the other minority religions say "We're the only religion that has it 'right' and you just gotta be one of us.... or else." Some of the Muslim sects come close, but most don't.

Nothing scares those of 'minority' religions than 40 to 60 million rabid, born-again, lets convert the those heathens, bible thumping, cross burning, members of the the Christian tradition. We're scared to s--t of them... and for good reason. It wasn't the Jews or the Hindus or the Buddhists who had the missionary zeal to totally wreck ancient and/or native civilizations.

When I look at history and I asked who drove the trains to the concentration camps, who grew the food for the SS guards, who swept out the ovens, all I see are French Catholics and German Protestants... all members of the Christian tradition who bought into the 'master race' theology... which is not that far removed from Christian theology.

We have over 2,000 years of Christian dominance via prejudice, violence, torture, slavery, hatred, and the belief that god is ONLY on their side.

It hasn't been until the past 75 or so years that more 'enlightened' Christians worked to prevent the excess of the past. Lets face it, who fought and died in overwhelming numbers against the Axis powers... American Christians. And who have worked hard the past 40 years to undo so many of the "wrongs' of previous generations in regard to civil rights and tolerance... American Christians.

So its not ALL Christians that scare me... but the ones that have a xenophobic vision of a Christian state... headed by a Rev. Huckabilly... not unlike what we see in the Islamic states... that scares the hell out of me... and for good reason. I know my history.

Al

[Mr. Bill]

Originally Posted by al3

I find it insulting for the Witnesses and Latter Day Saints to come to my door and insinuate that the religion practiced in my home is somehow inferior and that I need to listen to their version.

Al

That reminds me! It has been YEARS since the Jehovah Witnesses have been to my door - what could've possibly happened?

And if the Mormons were really all that great in converting, I sure wish they would send some (make that ALL) over to the Middle East and Indonesia and the backwaters of the Phillipines and get going on those Islamo-Fascists! I am tired of hearing about their "easy" missions - to Cleveland or some crap place like that.

By the way, Al, maybe you ought to post a "no solicitors" sign on or nearby your door. I don't have to, I have a vicious dog who absolutely sounds like she'll rip your throat out. Problem solved.

When I'm in the mall and I get approached, I tell them I'm a Satanist and that pretty much stops 'em dead in their tracks. Let's not forget, Satanists are people, too!

Has anyone else ever seen the really weird late night (make that middle of the night) shows on cable in NYC? Gosh, they have some really weird ones. I think it also may be where RuPaul got started.