Hi, I have a 45yr old client in Ky, that's looking for a $150 -200k 30yr Term policy. The client is on Disablility fo Bipolar Disorder and is taking Serequel 50mg daily. Other than that he's in good health and is a non-smoker. Does anyone know of a carrier that will ensure him, other than a Graded Death Benefit..
Hi, I have a 45yr old client in Ky, that's looking for a $150 -200k 30yr Term policy. The client is on Disablility fo Bipolar Disorder and is taking Serequel 50mg daily. Other than that he's in good health and is a non-smoker. Does anyone know of a carrier that will ensure him, other than a Graded Death Benefit..
You really need to talk to someone at your GA/MGA whatever who is in touch with the underwriters unless it is with carriers where you can speak directly with them. They can either give a quick opinion or talk it around a bit.
I have had West Coast issue policies on some bipolar folks but you cant generalize. You have to know more about the persons history. One person may be bipolar because they feel up a little one week and down a little the next. Another person might have been hospitalized six times in the last three years. And then there is the issue of what the doctors ultimately tell underwriting versus what the client told you.
The other little heads up I will give you is that, not surprisingly, clients with bipolar can have a hard time staying on board for the six weeks it will take to review them, or there could be a little drama along the way.
Good luck to you.
------------------------------------ Spending Our Way to Prosperity
The quick answer is yes, most will insure at a moderate to high rating if controlled. The fact he is on disability tends to lead one to think more serious - but agree do a quick call with your GA - with a little more info they can send in for a quick quote.
Will depend on the medical records, but we just had a case issued with West Coast Life at the standard rate for a bipolar individual who is taking lithium. If you can't find someone to offer standard, a table 2-4 rating would be likely to be assigned. You may be able to get a standard rate on a table shave program for a permanent policy with some carriers if you can't get the standard on term. Might end up being the same cost as the table rated policy all said and done. The fact that they're on disability may come into play, so you need to shop the case with 8-12 carriers if you can to find the best risk class/premium. Hopefully your brokerage facility can do this for you.
Winter's response was on the money! Winter, I could use another good underwriter.....are you available?
Anyway, it will depend on their history and their compliance with medical treatment. Bipolar disorder is more dangerous when it presents with manic episodes. These particular folks are the ones that are likely to stop taking their meds, because they feel GREAT and don't think anything is wrong. They may also act very compulsively during this time, and may do things without thinking through the consequenses...gambling, driving dangerously fast, taking risks most of us would recognize as too dangerous to take.
The underwriters will get the medical records and go from there. Very few Bipolars are standard. More in the table 4 or so range if insurable.
What is his reason for being on disability? Is it the bipolar? If so, why? Many bipolar sufferers are gainfully employed because they are well controlled. The underwriters will consider the persistancy risk in this instance as well given the disability.
Winter's response was on the money! Winter, I could use another good underwriter.....are you available?
Anyway, it will depend on their history and their compliance with medical treatment. Bipolar disorder is more dangerous when it presents with manic episodes. These particular folks are the ones that are likely to stop taking their meds, because they feel GREAT and don't think anything is wrong. They may also act very compulsively during this time, and may do things without thinking through the consequenses...gambling, driving dangerously fast, taking risks most of us would recognize as too dangerous to take.
The underwriters will get the medical records and go from there. Very few Bipolars are standard. More in the table 4 or so range if insurable.
What is his reason for being on disability? Is it the bipolar? If so, why? Many bipolar sufferers are gainfully employed because they are well controlled. The underwriters will consider the persistancy risk in this instance as well given the disability.
You have to take hospitlizations into consideration, too. A lot of people get diagnosed after being in a hospital. I'm originally from PA where we have two codes for it, a 302 and a 201... 302 is involuntary and 201 is voluntary committment to a psychiatric facility.
The best bet with ANY health issue is to get as much DETAILED information as possible and do a risk assessment. Ask these questions always:
When, Where, Why, what, how
When was it diagnosed
Where was it diagnosed
Why were you diagnosed, was it routine or were you hospitalized
What are you taking and how often
How often do you go to the doctor
When was the last time you went
What were the results
What were the readings (if applicable)
As you ask these questions the proposed insured will start pouring out details. Take notes and then approach the underwriter, if available, for a risk assessment or have someone at your managing agent's office do it for you.
Make sure you also have their height, weight, occupation, and whether they travel or not, as well... If you do things the right way in the beginning, it leaves little room for error in the end.
Note: some clients just flat out lie to you and there isn't much you can do about it.
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Louise Jackson-Marquez
Jackson Financial
direct: 214-927-6546
You have to take hospitlizations into consideration, too. A lot of people get diagnosed after being in a hospital. .....DETAILED information as possible and do a risk assessment. Ask these questions always:
When, Where, Why, what, how
When was it diagnosed
Where was it diagnosed
Why were you diagnosed, was it routine or were you hospitalized
What are you taking and how often
How often do you go to the doctor
When was the last time you went
What were the results What were the readings (if applicable)
Make sure you also have their height, weight, occupation, and whether they travel or not, as well...
Someone else already mentioned hospitalizations, so I didn't repeat advice given. And then someone else mentioned "it will depend on the records". Again did not repeat advice already given.
As an underwriter, I can assure you we get records on every known case...... This will tell us what we need to know, including if hospitalized, when last seen, etc. Psychiatric illnesses are a sensitive subject. Folks may tell you they have an illness, but they might not be comfortable going in to a lot of detail.
A lot of states, prohibit asking and/or using travel as a reason to limit or decline life insurance. Best bet is to always ask the questions on your application form as written, giving the information as requested on the form and then let the underwriters assess from there.
The Florida Office of Insurance Regulation has issued its 2008 Freedom to Travel Report. The report details the Office's efforts to implement the Freedom to Travel Act, which was passed in 2006. The legislation limits the ability of life insurance companies to deny coverage or increase premiums for Florida applicants based upon their foreign travel history or future plans.
The report states that seven life insurance companies were fined a total of $108,000 in 2007 for violations of the Freedom to Travel Act.
Someone else already mentioned hospitalizations, so I didn't repeat advice given. And then someone else mentioned "it will depend on the records". Again did not repeat advice already given.
As an underwriter, I can assure you we get records on every known case...... This will tell us what we need to know, including if hospitalized, when last seen, etc. Psychiatric illnesses are a sensitive subject. Folks may tell you they have an illness, but they might not be comfortable going in to a lot of detail.
A lot of states, prohibit asking and/or using travel as a reason to limit or decline life insurance. Best bet is to always ask the questions on your application form as written, giving the information as requested on the form and then let the underwriters assess from there.
The Florida Office of Insurance Regulation has issued its 2008 Freedom to Travel Report. The report details the Office's efforts to implement the Freedom to Travel Act, which was passed in 2006. The legislation limits the ability of life insurance companies to deny coverage or increase premiums for Florida applicants based upon their foreign travel history or future plans.
The report states that seven life insurance companies were fined a total of $108,000 in 2007 for violations of the Freedom to Travel Act.
I wasn't insinuating you missed anything, LRG; I was just reiterating the importance of agents getting everything they can from the client prior to asking for a risk assessment... I get daily emails from agents asking me to help them place their business on impaired risk cases and I can't even count the number of times I had to go back and ask them to ask the proposed insured all of the questions... I know the underwriters have access to records, etc... but I don't like submitting business with the hope they will get an offer. It's not good business practice to do that for a plethora of reasons, the most important from an agent's stand would be that it tanks your ratios which can give a carrier reason to terminate your contract.
I get daily emails from agents asking me to help them place their business on impaired risk cases and I can't even count the number of times I had to go back and ask them to ask the proposed insured all of the questions... I know the underwriters have access to records, etc... but I don't like submitting business with the hope they will get an offer. It's not good business practice to do that for a plethora of reasons, the most important from an agent's stand would be that it tanks your ratios which can give a carrier reason to terminate your contract.
Oh I feel for you! Do you work in a Brokers office? CaseManager/Underwriter? That is even tougher than what I do. I can just imagine the grief you get!
You are correct. Placement ratios are a big deal. I remember the day that when a case was offered rated, the agent would find a way to place it. Nowadays, it seems like unless a case comes out standard or better, it won't get placed. Everyone, no matter their medical history, thinks they are a preferred risk!
Everyone, no matter their medical history, thinks they are a preferred risk!
What....? You mean that 5'8" guy weighing 350 lbs with HBP and depression meds isn't going to be Standard Plus...?
You tell him....
The key to success with these folks is hitting them right between the eyes with reality... They kno they are FAT and not a pref risk... but they have had smoke blown by agents that do not know squat. So from the get-go, you tell em straight... and if they follow your lead and want insurance at that point then you have a client. If they want to listen to fairy tales, then let some other agent waste time with them.
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"A successful man is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks others have thrown at him." David Brinkley
What....? You mean that 5'8" guy weighing 350 lbs with HBP and depression meds isn't going to be Standard Plus...?
You tell him....
The key to success with these folks is hitting them right between the eyes with reality... They kno they are FAT and not a pref risk... but they have had smoke blown by agents that do not know squat. So from the get-go, you tell em straight... and if they follow your lead and want insurance at that point then you have a client. If they want to listen to fairy tales, then let some other agent waste time with them.
One question that keeps getting skirted is the issue of disability. Most disability is social security and most insurance companies will only underwrite a minimum if their is a benefit continuance upon death, which is the case with SS. So anyone on SS disability is likely to get held to $50k max benefit.
The other issue is that one of the primary criteria for underwriting bipolar is a well controlled disorder and an ability to function in society, as in family and work. Disability for bipolar is one of two things, either someone who can't function in society or someone who is working the system.
The criteria we have for successfully placing bipolar cases is:
1. Someone who has not been hospitalized for bipolar disorder other than for diagnosis?
2. Someone who has not attempted suicide or had bouts with suicidal ideations?
3. Someone who is compliant with their treatment, both medications and regular followups?
4. Someone who is leading a stable family life or social life?
5. Someone who is exhibiting a stable work life?
6. Someone who is not on disability for bipolar and does not have issues with drinking or drugs? If there's a problem here, then the answers to 3, 4 and 5 are no.
7. Rates are better if control medication is an anti seizure drug rather than an anti psychotic.
I successfully placed 27 bipolar cases last year with rate classes ranging from preferred plus to table 4.
How did you manage to get someone diagnosed as bipolar a preferred plus?
The truth is that we are surrounded by high functioning people with bipolar and for those at the right end of the spectrum with great stability, stellar compliance with treatment and no real issues other than having the diagnosis in their records, you will never know them as bipolar. There are plenty of companies that will go standard plus to standard on these cases and one very well known and respected company that has gone preferred best and preferred on several occasions.
How did I do it? No nonsense questioning of the client. No nonsense presentation of the trial. Knowing my underwriters very well.
The truth is that we are surrounded by high functioning people with bipolar and for those at the right end of the spectrum with great stability, stellar compliance with treatment and no real issues other than having the diagnosis in their records, you will never know them as bipolar. There are plenty of companies that will go standard plus to standard on these cases and one very well known and respected company that has gone preferred best and preferred on several occasions.
How did I do it? No nonsense questioning of the client. No nonsense presentation of the trial. Knowing my underwriters very well.
So why the secret on telling us what company it is?
So why the secret on telling us what company it is?
I gave you the criteria and told you honestly what can be approved. Shop it or come up with something I don't know and I'll trade information with you.
I gave you the criteria and told you honestly what can be approved. Shop it or come up with something I don't know and I'll trade information with you.
Uh.....ok. I don't need to spend hours guessing what company it might be, nor does it matter much. I am just curious for future reference. Is there a real reason you don't want to disclose the company? Who cares?
So why the secret on telling us what company it is?
I would like to know as well......Bipolar, no matter HOW well controlled in the past is dependent on the applicant taking their medication to keep it controlled. This is much like hypertension and other impairments that rely on patient compliance for control. This is why these conditions don't get the best offers. Patient compliance is unpredictable and can cause catastrophic results....
If the applicant got a preferred plus or any real preferred rate (and I am curious how it is Eddy got "several" bipolar clients) I would suspect an error in diagnosis or underwriter ignorance.
JMHO.
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OH MY.....I just reread Eddie's post. TWENTY SEVEN bipolar cases in one year!!!!!!!
Last edited by LRG : 07-08-2009 at 01:33 PM.
Reason: Posts merged
People with bipolar definitely should qualify to have a life insurance coverage. Its not surprising why most companies decline them because of their high suicidal tendencies, but most life insurance dont pay off if the death is caused by suicide.
Life Insurance for Bipolar Client
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