Don't Work With Pinney Insurance

[sman]

Since agent commissions are paid directly I can't see how this or any other BGA working with a middleman affects any of us.

Not defending Pinney but even Jeff admits that every nickle of commission was paid, just not overrides.

The title of this thread is "Don't Work With Pinney Insurance." I haven't seen a reason that affects any agent working with them. In fact, I'm not convinced this thread is even appropriate. Seems like a private matter.

Rick

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have seen BGA's pay an additional percentage. The carrier pays directly to the agent and the BGA pays on top of that. This might happen in a case where the carrier may require a certain amount of production in order to get a higher contract, but the BGA can pay you more. The BGA will offer the additional commission (part of their overrides) as an incentive to do business with them. One BGA in particular did this as a business practice for everyone, not just a select few agents. You'd get street level paid directly by the carrier and an extra 10%-20% paid to you by the BGA.

As for not seeing a reason to not do business with them, that's your choice. Personally I think it's good that Jeff posted it. I definitely won't be doing business with Pinney thanks to Jeff sharing his experience. With great detail and proof I might add.

 

[Newby]

I always assumed that Pinney was OK because my few dealing with them were always through Jeff Root. But Jeff has 100% credibility with me. If he says don't do business with them I will not and won't be referring agents to them like I have in the past.

 

[Indy007]

I don't post here much, but Jroot has always seemed like a straight up guy. I've had a few breakdowns in communication with my current BGA that I use for fully underwritten life and annuity cases. Mainly due to them having high turnover of case managers/etc, that's irrelevant though.

I've read Jroot's posts on here for years, Was considering Pinney, and I appreciate his honesty here. I'll keep looking. I've got my signed release, I just need to find everything I'm looking for. Service, tech and contract levels. No middlemen "imo's" and no BS.

Thanks for the heads up

 

[goillini52]

Since agent commissions are paid directly I can't see how this or any other BGA working with a middleman affects any of us.

Not defending Pinney but even Jeff admits that every nickle of commission was paid, just not overrides.

The title of this thread is "Don't Work With Pinney Insurance." I haven't seen a reason that affects any agent working with them. In fact, I'm not convinced this thread is even appropriate. Seems like a private matter.

*ick

I guess that would make you a hypocrite. I've seen you bring up FMO's that screwed you on several occasions.

 

[DHK]

"Greenguy"???

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[goillini52]

"Greenguy"???

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[scagnt83]

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[GreenSky]

I guess that would make you a hypocrite. I've seen you bring up FMO's that screwed you on several occasions.

That's absolutely true monkey boy. But those FMO's screwed me as an agent by not granting a release. They never held back money paid to me as a marketer.

So if it makes me a hypocrite in your eyes, please ask me if I give a monkey's ass.

And I never said I disagreed with Jeff. I don't work with him nor do I with Pinney. One marketer being pissed at another is really nothing I care about.

Rick

 

[scagnt83]

And I never said I disagreed with Jeff. I don't work with him nor do I with Pinney. One marketer being pissed at another is really nothing I care about.

Rick

You care so little that you have posted in this thread multiple times just to let everyone know how much you dont care.


I dont doubt that this would not affect you. However, many experienced life agents get paid Overrides on their personal production by their BGA in addition to direct Commissions from the Carrier. So this could affect many of the experienced guys producing serious business for a BGA or IMO.

And while Pinney does not do this, many smaller BGAs/GAs will even offer green agents Overrides to "buy" their business.

You might not be one of them, but there are plenty of agents who get paid Overrides on personal production.

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A bit of overlap in the replies here...I will try to explain my position since I am mentioned.

I was the one terminated by Pinney in Feb ‘16 due to “creating a competing product.” It was not a competing product (they have a CRM, our system is a website quoter only) and they knew about and embraced it for 4 months until they terminated me. I am fine with being terminated, actually glad. I was a W2 employee, in California. I am fine with the termination, what I am not fine with is being terminated after being the top earning person there and having all commissions during the month of termination not paid, as well as conveniently not paying me for my 2015 commission true up due a few weeks later. The claim of “as earned” is false. The amount due is well beyond what is owed to Jroot. I will not get into more specifics, but the case is heavily on my side. My attorney is collecting in a California wage claim case set to be heard in June.

All of the above I can completely live with. What I cannot live with is the bullying, the calling carriers telling them not to work with us throwing around their weight as a BGA, calling prospective future employers “warning” them about me, telling people that I stole, telling my broker relationships that they should seriously question my ethics. As an employer, in California, you are not legally or ethically allowed to impede on a past employee’s future economic relations. Meanwhile, carriers remove themselves from my quoting company and it takes months to get them back onboard after having multiple character witnesses come forward and back me. I have a very valid punitive damages case here (insert DHK’s Waddell and Reed reference), but I am choosing to take the high road and repair those relationships and compete. The claim of my diverting business is 100% false.

Why am I glad I was terminated?

After looking around I have found BGAs to all be the same, and for the most part of no help beyond being the middleman between agent and carrier. They all do the same thing, but the carrier drop ticket systems do them better. If your value proposition is that you help agents process business by providing them application fulfillment, an underwriting resource and a case manager you will be out of business in 5 years. Period. You have to teach them HOW to generate business, not just process it for them. Now, there are some GREAT BGAs out there and I am not knocking those doing the right thing and providing that value...I am just saying that most do not provide this value. Pinney certainly had some home runs during their day, but they went down the wrong path by not listening to their agents.

Anyone that has ever been to XXXXXX, or an event specifically catered to BGAs will immediately notice the average age is over 65. We are an industry controlled by an older, not as tech savvy group of people. Nothing against the generation at all, in fact quite the opposite--they have forgotten more about insurance than most of us will ever know. Problem is, they are not sharing it or are very against change. They control the IMO level, the BGA level, the carrier level etc. When someone comes in with a difference of opinion and innovates and disrupts their business, they fire shots to protect their empire. Why do you think that VCs are throwing a fortune at Insurtech right now. Change is happening. Unfortunately, an aged/established BGA cannot see the forest for the trees and most will close or be acquired soon.

Did we start a BGA after I was terminated, yes. Did we do it during my relationship with them, no. Why did we start a BGA in a time where we are seeing BGAs going out of business? Why start a business in a time where distribution is changing? Simply put: we provided a value not found elsewhere for digital and online focused agents. We know how to generate leads, we know how to train agents to sell and market, we know how to help an agent create an online business. Agents in our niche need this knowledge and for too long the guys at the top have gotten rich off the guy at the bottom, providing them little to no value outside of application fulfillment and an occasional underwriting question.

The main point is to make sure your BGA helps you generate or build your business, not just process your applications. A BGA does not deserve an override on your business just because they exist.

Questions to ask your BGA:

• Outside of app fulfillment and underwriting, what other kind of value will you provide me for the override I am paying you on my production? If there is no immediate response...move on.
• What kind of new business ideas can you provide me for the revenue I am providing you?
• Explain to me your release policy. Please send to me in writing.
• Can you please break down your contact sequences for your touches with my clients.
• What portion of the commissions are paid by the carrier vs. you? Please send me the contract to review before I contract.

The terms “IMO, FMO, BGA” are thrown around a lot. Here is a bit of clarity on the hierarchy:

Carrier>>>IMO>>>BGA>>>SubBGA>>>Agent

There are 7-10 IMOs in traditional life distribution
There are hundreds of BGAs (an estimated 700)
There are thousands of Sub-BGAs (downlines + bonuses paid on their own production)
There are hundreds of thousands of agents.


When carriers go to market with a product, they rely on IMOs to distribute it. IMOs rely on vetted BGAs to get it directly to agents. Carriers want limited contact with agents, hence the hierarchy of things. The value chain has changed over the years to where carriers are providing more value than their downline distributors. We are about to see a huge shift in business processes over the next few years due to the lacking values and high percentage of retiring agents no longer writing business or padding the pockets of aging BGAs.

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And because I get calls daily: I, Nic West, am also no longer affiliated with Pinney Insurance effective 2/29/16.


Edit: removed previous reference because I have the utmost respect for them as an organization.

What an extremely accurate and introspective assessment of our industry.

If our industry does not keep up with the times, outside entities will do it for us... and that ends up with poor/dangerous results for consumers. Zenefits is the perfect example of that in the benefits world. They captured HUGE market share because of their tech superiority. BUT, they were computer geeks and not agents... and they broke numerous insurance laws and are now paying the price.

Irresponsible companies like Zenefits, that have zero roots or knowledge in the insurance biz, are not good for our industry. If we dont embrace the times the results will be very bad for all involved. We will have more bad actors or incompetent actors if we do nothing as an industry.


As you already know Nic, I think you have a great company and wish you the best of luck. (not that you need it.... obviously your food is very scared of you at the moment... LOL)

 

[GreenSky]

You care so little that you have posted in this thread multiple times just to let everyone know how much you dont care.


I dont doubt that this would not affect you. However, many experienced life agents get paid Overrides on their personal production by their BGA in addition to direct Commissions from the Carrier. So this could affect many of the experienced guys producing serious business for a BGA or IMO.

And while Pinney does not do this, many smaller BGAs/GAs will even offer green agents Overrides to "buy" their business.

You might not be one of them, but there are plenty of agents who get paid Overrides on personal production.

Thank you for a non-emotional and intelligent post. I stand corrected and now see why this is important.

Rick