Don't Work With Pinney Insurance

[goillini52]

Surely you jest.

Guilty as charged.

 

[scagnt83]

Here my thoughts on the subject. Ive had no contact with Jeff or Pinney about this. I have zero contracts with Jeff, and run just a very minimal amount of biz through Pinney most years.

As many of you know, I have recommended Pinney before, so have many other experienced agents on this forum. Why? Because for years now, they have been known as an ethical BGA that provided good quality service, and had a fairly "well rounded" choice of carriers. And the "ez-life" quoting/app system, at one time, was a fairly unique value prop.

However, that was before the majority of carriers had drop ticket systems.... things have changed over the past few years... now most carriers offer drop ticket systems. So the EZ-Life quote/app system is not the cutting edge time saver that it used to be.


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Jeff Root is one of the most professional acting agents on this forum. I have never known him to to lie, exaggerate, or partake in drama filled narratives (even when being wrongly attacked).

For him to post what he posted, I can assure you something MAJORLY WRONG happened between him and Pinney.

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There is plenty of factual evidence to show that Jeff never attempted to "poach" agents from Pinney. Hell, he even recommended Pinney in the book he wrote as a quality BGA for a "digital life insurance agent" to use. He didnt even make a hard pitch within his book for his own BGA, he mentions Pinney as an equal to his own BGA!

How can he be "poaching clients" from Pinney, when he is actively recommending them in his book???

(I have a feeling he will be writing a 2nd edition or publishing a revised version of the first... LOL)

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Lets sum this up... Jeff has recommended Pinney for years now. He brought them millions in premium over the years and helped to make them the big player that they are. He even recommended them in the book he wrote!

Pinney now wants to thank him for all of that by stiffing him for tens of thousands of dollars??!!

WTF??

There is no doubt that Pinney would not be nearly as big as they are now without Jeff Root. They have expanded greatly over the past 6 years from what Ive seen. Lots of agents went to them because they saw on this forum that a big hitter like Jeff works with them.

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Pinney's response they wrote tells me all I need to know about the top management. I certainly will never use them again after reading that. More importantly, I will never recommend them again on this forum. (my non-compensated referrals have brought them more money than my personal production has)

I dont know who is right or who is wrong in this situation. But I will never work with an organization that responds publicly in that way.


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I can attest to the fact that Nic was not actively recruiting against Pinney either. When telling me about his new company (because I asked him about it), Nic even mentioned that "EZ Life is still a great platform".

I never once heard anything bad being said about Pinney from Nic or Jeff. I have always known them to act with professionalism and respect.


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Pinney really needs to think about what they are doing. This could very well sink their company, or at least set them back a decade. Jeff Root and this Forum are a HUGE reason Pinney is as well known as they are.

Reputation is everything in this business. It is not worth losing your rep over $40k. He wrote the business, he should get paid on it per the written contract he had with Pinney.

BGAs mistreating agents is a very big issue in this industry. Ive lost thousands due to unethical GAs. Im just glad its not tens of thousands like Jeff.

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2. A poster on this forum who seems to be quite respected suggested I look into Pinney months ago. I was going to, right about now actually, because my current GA is not meeting all of my needs. I will not seek Pinney as a result of this. Why? well, as others have pointed out, although I am a little superwoman agent, I probably won't get screwed by them, but...

...................

It was also recommended to me that I read Jeff Root's book. I am going to buy it immediately now!

I think your talking about me... lol. So you were going to take my BGA advice but you havent taken my reading advice yet? jk

For what its worth, Jeff used to recommend Pinney up until end of last year.... LOL. I also recommended looking at Jeff's BGA. FIG is a good option as well (and is within driving distance of you).

 

[Tothetop]

A bit of overlap in the replies here...I will try to explain my position since I am mentioned.

I was the one terminated by Pinney in Feb ‘16 due to “creating a competing product.” It was not a competing product (they have a CRM, our system is a website quoter only) and they knew about and embraced it for 4 months until they terminated me. I am fine with being terminated, actually glad. I was a W2 employee, in California. I am fine with the termination, what I am not fine with is being terminated after being the top earning person there and having all commissions during the month of termination not paid, as well as conveniently not paying me for my 2015 commission true up due a few weeks later. The claim of “as earned” is false. The amount due is well beyond what is owed to Jroot. I will not get into more specifics, but the case is heavily on my side. My attorney is collecting in a California wage claim case set to be heard in June.

All of the above I can completely live with. What I cannot live with is the bullying, the calling carriers telling them not to work with us throwing around their weight as a BGA, calling prospective future employers “warning” them about me, telling people that I stole, telling my broker relationships that they should seriously question my ethics. As an employer, in California, you are not legally or ethically allowed to impede on a past employee’s future economic relations. Meanwhile, carriers remove themselves from my quoting company and it takes months to get them back onboard after having multiple character witnesses come forward and back me. I have a very valid punitive damages case here (insert DHK’s Waddell and Reed reference), but I am choosing to take the high road and repair those relationships and compete. The claim of my diverting business is 100% false.

Why am I glad I was terminated?

After looking around I have found BGAs to all be the same, and for the most part of no help beyond being the middleman between agent and carrier. They all do the same thing, but the carrier drop ticket systems do them better. If your value proposition is that you help agents process business by providing them application fulfillment, an underwriting resource and a case manager you will be out of business in 5 years. Period. You have to teach them HOW to generate business, not just process it for them. Now, there are some GREAT BGAs out there and I am not knocking those doing the right thing and providing that value...I am just saying that most do not provide this value. Pinney certainly had some home runs during their day, but they went down the wrong path by not listening to their agents.

Anyone that has ever been to XXXXXX, or an event specifically catered to BGAs will immediately notice the average age is over 65. We are an industry controlled by an older, not as tech savvy group of people. Nothing against the generation at all, in fact quite the opposite--they have forgotten more about insurance than most of us will ever know. Problem is, they are not sharing it or are very against change. They control the IMO level, the BGA level, the carrier level etc. When someone comes in with a difference of opinion and innovates and disrupts their business, they fire shots to protect their empire. Why do you think that VCs are throwing a fortune at Insurtech right now. Change is happening. Unfortunately, an aged/established BGA cannot see the forest for the trees and most will close or be acquired soon.

Did we start a BGA after I was terminated, yes. Did we do it during my relationship with them, no. Why did we start a BGA in a time where we are seeing BGAs going out of business? Why start a business in a time where distribution is changing? Simply put: we provided a value not found elsewhere for digital and online focused agents. We know how to generate leads, we know how to train agents to sell and market, we know how to help an agent create an online business. Agents in our niche need this knowledge and for too long the guys at the top have gotten rich off the guy at the bottom, providing them little to no value outside of application fulfillment and an occasional underwriting question.

The main point is to make sure your BGA helps you generate or build your business, not just process your applications. A BGA does not deserve an override on your business just because they exist.

Questions to ask your BGA:

• Outside of app fulfillment and underwriting, what other kind of value will you provide me for the override I am paying you on my production? If there is no immediate response...move on.
• What kind of new business ideas can you provide me for the revenue I am providing you?
• Explain to me your release policy. Please send to me in writing.
• Can you please break down your contact sequences for your touches with my clients.
• What portion of the commissions are paid by the carrier vs. you? Please send me the contract to review before I contract.

The terms “IMO, FMO, BGA” are thrown around a lot. Here is a bit of clarity on the hierarchy:

Carrier>>>IMO>>>BGA>>>SubBGA>>>Agent

There are 7-10 IMOs in traditional life distribution
There are hundreds of BGAs (an estimated 700)
There are thousands of Sub-BGAs (downlines + bonuses paid on their own production)
There are hundreds of thousands of agents.


When carriers go to market with a product, they rely on IMOs to distribute it. IMOs rely on vetted BGAs to get it directly to agents. Carriers want limited contact with agents, hence the hierarchy of things. The value chain has changed over the years to where carriers are providing more value than their downline distributors. We are about to see a huge shift in business processes over the next few years due to the lacking values and high percentage of retiring agents no longer writing business or padding the pockets of aging BGAs.

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And because I get calls daily: I, Nic West, am also no longer affiliated with Pinney Insurance effective 2/29/16.


Edit: removed previous reference because I have the utmost respect for them as an organization.

I want to like this 100 times over. New agents this man is talking truth regarding BGA's. Too many times BGA'S offer absolutely no value beyond processing business. Not to mention sometimes the case manager has so many cases that they are not pushing your case along as fast as if you had direct contact with the carrier.

I kid you not I had a case last week where the case manager literally was asking for requirements to issue a case and the policy had been issued. I had to tell the case manager the case was issued. The requirement was fulfilled because I sent it to the carrier directly after the case manager gave me incomplete information about the requirements.
Why are you getting overrides off me again?

 

[SuperWoman]

I am starting to have serious second thoughts about my BGA. I have a case that has become complicated on receiving 3 separate APS's and the case manager blaming my client because she forgot to list a G.I. doc who did a routine colonoscopy a few years ago. She says the UW became "suspicious" that she omitted him and now wants his records because of her omission. I feel manipulated, and now annoyed that a week after the records were ordered, I had the client call the doctor only to find out they have no record of the request.



This BGA doesn't do anything for me other than process/case management. I think I need to look for more GA's. Oh, I also use Crump, only for GI, and when I want to really pull my hair out with severely incompetent people.

 

[TomZack]

Having read this continuing thread and am following up on Golfnut's advice about going direct, I, nonetheless have gleaned a lot of 'information' to assess.

So....what is Jeff Root's BGA called? I have subscribed to his selltermlife.com site and have picked up his book to read.

I guess the value of an IMO or BGA is the support, training, sales support materials, (including charts, videos?) and help actually presenting a case or at least a concept to a prospect.

So.......Are there any agents out there who would recommend an IMO or BGA that they have found that does a good job helping you do your job or make a professional, persuasive presentation?

That is....in addition to capably handling the application process? (Scratches his head)

Looking for full spectrum (term and cash value, but not FE) life insurance focused orgs for Connecticut.

What an interesting (but diverse) business this is.

And, though older myself, I agree that the old ways are ripe for disruption and technology is making in roads as we speak. So I am trying to see what can be done "online" versus what still makes the most sense doing business face-to-face - as much of the business still does.

Anyway, without hi-jacking the thread (I hope) what IMOs and BGAs have the most tools and support to help us newer agents get effectively producing quicker in the life arena?

 

[SuperWoman]

All great questions, Tom. I don't think it's hijacking since Jeff's point here is to save people like us -newber goobers - from dealing with folks like this.

 

[scagnt83]

........................

I guess the value of an IMO or BGA is the support, training, sales support materials, (including charts, videos?) and help actually presenting a case or at least a concept to a prospect.

So.......Are there any agents out there who would recommend an IMO or BGA that they have found that does a good job helping you do your job or make a professional, persuasive presentation?

That is....in addition to capably handling the application process? (Scratches his head)

Looking for full spectrum (term and cash value, but not FE) life insurance focused orgs for Connecticut.
........

Its even more complex than that.

Some carriers allow direct sales, others dont. Agents can choose to only work with direct carriers.... however.... that is going to limit your competitiveness. How much it limits things depends on the demographics you work to some extent. It also depends on the type of product you are selling (talking about non life products such as DI or Annuities).


The old saying "jack of all trades, master of none" holds very true in the BGA world. At least in my experience.

Most new agents want to find just 1 BGA to work with, and they want it to do "everything" and be "masters of everything".... That is a completely unrealistic expectation.

BGAs all have their specialties. Even the ones that tell you they do "everything" still have their sweet spot that they do best.

Some BGAs are great with mentoring new agents. Others have zero interest in that. Some BGAs offer lots of training and resources, others dont. Some BGAs offer leads, others dont. Some just provide processing and high contracts... which for some agents is all they want or need.

My point is that they all have different value propositions they bring to agents. Then there is the various expertise in types of products. Want to know what products they specialize in? Ask them what they do best. If they cant give a clear answer then then you should ask a lot more questions, starting with "which line of business accounts for the majority of your firms business?".

In my opinion, you should NEVER use just 1 BGA. Always have an active relationship with other BGAs, even if its just 1 off cases. There are lots of reasons why, both for your best interest and your clients.


But the number 1 thing the BGA should be doing for you is processing your business properly and efficiently. Some BGAs seem to get caught up in all the bells and whistles, but fail to do the basics well.

Bottom line is that nothing else matters if they cant process your business efficiently. Some non-direct carriers are good about working with agents on processing business. But others are not and you have to go through the BGA for everything. If they cant process business in a timely manner then move on.

 

[SuperWoman]

Well said, scagent83.

Has anyone used Crump? I complained earlier about them, but they do offer some sort of training/product knowledge efforts. I was forced to use them when at NYL for cases that NYL declined. I use them now for GI, Gerber, which pays 60%. Best comp for GI that I am aware of. But they are lacking woefully in customer service and competency.

But, for GI, I will have to use them. Unless I find something better.

 

[TomZack]

wow. Great post (for someone like me).

This is why I come here regularly.

So many have generously shared their knowledge. It has shortened my learning curve quite a bit.


scagnt83 - I appreciate your taking the time to share your knowledge on the somewhat complicated nuances of the business RE: IMOs/BGAs

Again, thank you.

 

[goillini52]

Well said, scagent83.

Has anyone used Crump? I complained earlier about them, but they do offer some sort of training/product knowledge efforts. I was forced to use them when at NYL for cases that NYL declined. I use them now for GI, Gerber, which pays 60%. Best comp for GI that I am aware of. But they are lacking woefully in customer service and competency.

But, for GI, I will have to use them. Unless I find something better.

AIG pays 80% on GI. It's competitive with Gerber and sometimes beats it.