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-   -   Whole Life... Why Not to Love It? (http://www.insurance-forums.net/forum/life-insurance-forum/whole-life-why-not-love-t54774.html)

scagnt83 07-09-2013 11:22 PM

Re: Whole Life... Why Not to Love It?
 
[quote=Mr_Ed;716670]Wow! I usually like your posts scagnt, but this post is
shockingly ignorant.

You have no idea how dividends work.

The dividends are a fixed dollar amount, not a percentage.
When the stock price goes down the percentage actually increases!


(and an individual 401k can invest in P&G stock.)[/quote]


So im not a series 7 and I dont own any dividend paying stocks. You got me. :swoon: (learn something new everyday)


But I do know that some "very reliable" blue chips suspended and reduced dividends back in 08' & 01'.
I also know that dividends are not guaranteed unless you own preferred stock.


And technically any 401k can invest in most any security it wants to as long as the Trustee allows it.
But in the real world 99% of 401k plans do not offer individual stocks.

Yes, there are SoloKs that do. But they are still not the majority.
And if the 25 year old we are talking about actually owns a business and has a soloK as an option; at $6k per year they would be much better off with a SEP until they can afford to contribute real money.
And yes, they could do blue-chips in a SEP.

To outperform the income from PI you would need over an 8% return in a 401k.

(and Im glad you like my posts. I usually like your ltc posts... cant say the same thing for LI though)

Mr_Ed 07-09-2013 11:23 PM

Re: Whole Life... Why Not to Love It?
 
[quote=BNTRS;716674]Buy blue chips and live off the dividends? I know some former GE employees who have an opinion about that recommendation. Let's just say they wouldn't be cheering you on.[/quote]

... and GE is the only blue chip company that pays dividends.

gimmeabreak....



geez, can't any of you guys come up with a half way decent refutation of my arguments?

scagnt83 07-09-2013 11:26 PM

Re: Whole Life... Why Not to Love It?
 
[quote=Boggers;716276]I like the idea of the WL, but I did not hear anyone chime in on a UL. You can overfund in the good years, but still pay Min if you loose job/house/kids type of thing as well. WL being ideal sold for those that can see the worth, but a UL would be a good backup idea.[/quote]

Great points.

I had a very large chargeback once in 2008 that would not have happened if I had sold UL.

UL also allows Guideline Premium Testing in lieu of CVAT. Which allows for a higher income percentage.

Tahoe Ray 07-09-2013 11:29 PM

[QUOTE="BNTRS;716674"]Buy blue chips and live off the dividends? I know some former GE employees who have an opinion about that recommendation. Let's just say they wouldn't be cheering you on.[/QUOTE]

I think that this was in reference to the accumulation phase, not the distribution.

Besides, doesn't everyone move their retirement accounts to annuities when taking distributions?:-)

scagnt83 07-09-2013 11:32 PM

Re: Whole Life... Why Not to Love It?
 
[quote=Mr_Ed;716677]... and GE is the only blue chip company that pays dividends.

gimmeabreak....



geez, can't any of you guys come up with a half way decent refutation of my arguments?[/quote]


You ignored my post before the blue chip post. (It refuted most everything you said)
And instead called me out on the one thing that has very little to do with the conversation.

It is obvious you are extremely ignorant about permanent insurance. And it is even more obvious that you have never done a true comparison with a properly designed overfunded policy.

(would you care to refute my refutation? or just ignore it and try to attack people...?)
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[quote=Tahoe Ray;716679]I think that this was in reference to the accumulation phase, not the distribution.

Besides, doesn't everyone move their retirement accounts to annuities when taking distributions?:-)[/quote]

To get a 5.5% guaranteed lifetime payout at age 65 she must have!!! It obviously isnt in stocks anymore!

Mr_Ed 07-09-2013 11:36 PM

Re: Whole Life... Why Not to Love It?
 
[quote=scagnt83;716680]You ignored my post before the blue chip post. (It refuted most everything you said)
And instead called me out on the one thing that has very little to do with the conversation.

It is obvious you know very little about permanent insurance. And it is even more obvious that you have never done a true comparison with a properly designed overfunded policy.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


To get a 5.5% guaranteed lifetime payout at age 65 she must have!!! It obviously isnt in stocks anymore![/quote]


#1) You don't even understand the most basic concept of how stock dividends work. You think that the amount of the stock dividend is based upon the stock price! You think the dividends goes down when the stock price goes down. This is basic stuff... Investing 101 and you don't even know this simple truth.

#2) Please post (or email to me) an illustration for a properly designed overfunded permanent life policy for a 25 year old male. And we'll do some comparisons with real numbers.


good nite... almost 1am...way past bedtime.
mrsed

scagnt83 07-09-2013 11:43 PM

Re: Whole Life... Why Not to Love It?
 
[quote=Mr_Ed;716685]#1) You don't even understand the most basic concept of how stock dividends work. You think that the amount of the stock dividend is based upon the stock price! You think the dividends goes down when the stock price goes down. This is basic stuff... Investing 101 and you don't even know this simple truth.

#2) Please post (or email to me) an illustration for a properly designed overfunded permanent life policy for a 25 year old male. And we'll do some comparisons with real numbers.


good nite... almost 1am...way past bedtime.
mrsed[/quote]


Again, you put down and ignore.

[B]I gave you real numbers and compared them to your numbers you put out.[/B]

So I have already done a comparison for you. You just chose to ignore it and attack the one factual error I posted. (Which had very little to do with the overall conversation) But since you have no argument based on the math I guess you feel you must personally attack and harp on the one thing you are able to.


And I have done comparisons many times in the past for clients and on this site.

If you really care about being objective on the issue then use the search button and your two eyes. Illustrations are posted on here too.


Obviously, based on the math, you have no argument. So instead you resort to name calling.
[B]Very classy lady[/B] .... I hope your ego feels better

BNTRS 07-10-2013 12:03 AM

[QUOTE="Mr_Ed;716677"]

... and GE is the only blue chip company that pays dividends.

gimmeabreak....

geez, can't any of you guys come up with a half way decent refutation of my arguments?[/QUOTE]

At what point in time did I suggest that GE was the only Blue Chip stock?

There was a subtly to where I was going with this, and you took the bait. We never know which blue chip will be a winner and which a loser. Once well regarded blue chips aren't blue chip anymore.

This is the problem that the investment salespeople always have when they make this argument. You come to the table preaching theory, I can come to the table with a handful of very specific products I can talk about.

Stock market investing on the other hand is all about which investment idea is hot right now. And when it turns out to be a dud tomorrow, you all move on and pretend like it never existed.

I meet people on a very frequent basis who did it your way for most of their life. Now they want out. They've lived what you're preaching far longer than you've been preaching it. And you can dream up whatever numbers you want. I'm taking their experience over your theory based on hypotheticals every day of the week.

Tahoe Ray 07-10-2013 12:13 AM

We all use different strategies in planning for our clients' futures.

Roths are a powerful tool but so is WL.

All of the numbers we use are conjecture. I can make or break any plan with different assumptions...no one can win this thread.

Larry Tew 07-10-2013 06:01 AM

Re: Whole Life... Why Not to Love It?
 
[quote=WCMason;716582]Off topic but can't pass up the opportunity. Conventional wisdom in the 15th century did not hold that the world was flat. "Enlightened" people in later centuries hung that myth on the people of the Middle Ages. OK, back to whatever it was you were discussing.

Sent from my iPad using InsForums[/quote]
Yes, that happened in the early 1800's. But the interesting thing about this example of conventional wisdom isn't what the people of the 15th century believed, but rather what the average person of today believes the average person of the 15th century believed.

In other words, most people today believe that most people in Columbus's day thought the earth was flat. "Enlightened" people know better, but enlightened people aren't the masses. By definition conventional wisdom IS the masses.

Point here is that following the conventional financial wisdom of maxing 401's, buying 30-year term, hanging your hat on ONE blue-chip stock, etc will not produce the desired outcome. If you want a different outcome than the masses, you have to do different than the masses.
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[quote=Hastingsinsurance;716562]"To each is his own". I personally greatly appreciate what you have to say and TEACH. Chive on Larry, dont let one starve the ones that want and need the info. And insight![/quote]
Thanks. There's always more to learn. And it's what you learn AFTER you thought you knew it all that counts the most.


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