So you would say that God can sin? I would tell you that I believe that God CANNOT sin.
You say that "God has already reconciled man unto Himself through Christ." Do you beleive that ALL men are reconciled to God and that ALL men are saved?
2Cor5
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
All are reconciled does not mean that all are saved.
It does mean that God no longer has enmity towards anyone.
It is up to each person to accept that reconciliation.
It is our job to communicate that message of reconciliation.
Are you communicating the message of reconciliation?
Xrac,
I miss hearing TL preach.
He changed my life.
Kw
There are people on this Earth that will never be saved. We can tell them the message, if they choose to except it great, but if they don't move on to someone who might.The Pharisees never excepted it, and Jesus spoke to those that would. Al and other guys fit into this category.
That's because Al believes that there was no Jesus... it's a nice folk story... about a guy who was probably gay. To paraphrase someone else, Jesus is the opiate of the people.
Al also believes that the bible (old and new) was written hundreds of years after the so-called facts. It's a collection of stories that never happened... similar to the fairy tales you tell your kids.
If you want to believe in the fiction of Jesus and the bibles, go right ahead. Knock yourself out. But don't ask (or demand) me to join you.
One day they will find out if it is true or not, and it may be too late.
On the other hand you I believe you will be seriously disappointed to find that there is no Jesus... and that you are reincarnated into another life... which is basically what well over two thirds the world believes to be true.... and I concur.
Oh by the way AL, are you gay? Just curious.....
You're curious? You are asking for a date? You looking to hook up? I bet you are. In my experience only a gay is interested if someone else is gay.
So, is it getting a bit lonely in that closet... with your crucifix in one hand and your bible in the other? Well, if you want to avoid a lot of harassment from your Christian friends I suggest you stay in that closet... until you find another born-again who is in the stall reading his bible and tapping his foot.
Don't really care if Al/Alli is gay or not but I'm curious to know why he/she would make such an effort to stir the pot ? Obviously someone who enjoys the attention of creating controversy.
Don't really care if Al/Alli is gay or not but I'm curious to know why he/she would make such an effort to stir the pot ? Obviously someone who enjoys the attention of creating controversy.
I don't care either, I am trying to find out why he feels the way he feels.
I don't care either, I am trying to find out why he feels the way he feels.
"Feels" about what?
Why I believe that someone who asks if I'm gay is probably a latent homosexual? That was partly answered in the above post. If you didn't care, why would you ask? If you did ask, I can only assume there is a reason you asked... and being gay yourself is as reasonable an explanation to me as any other. Whether you are gay or not makes no difference to me. However, with your religious homophobia, I doubt you could or would make the same statement. It's OK for Christians to fear, hate, and despise gays. You did the same thing with Jews for over 2000 years... but it seems you have finally gotten over that. I'm sure in another thousand or so years we'll see some changes in your belief structure.
Why I believe there never was a Jesus and that the bibles are just pagen folk tales written 300 years after said (mythical) events? I can answer that... although it would take a book-length posting to do the subject justice. There are plenty of web-sites that espouse the same philosophy so you can google for "Jesus is a myth" Here is a start: Christ_myth_theory
Bottom line, I am not trying to convince you or anyone of any of this. I don't care what you believe. However, I know from past experience that religious nuts (like you?) deeply care (and are often resentful) that others (many others) don't share their belief in the deity of Jesus.
Do I enjoy engaging in these kinds of discussions and/or listening/learning to what the "born-again" religious neo-cons have to say or what the agnostics have to say or what the atheists have to say? Guilty as charged.
Al, I've said before I agree with most of your post on this forum, but I have to tell you, you're wasting time and energy trying to talk to or convert these guys to any of your philosophies. But if you enjoy it go ahead, I enjoy reading your ideas and should mention that your line of reasoning is the direction America is gradually heading JMO.
Al, I've said before I agree with most of your post on this forum, but I have to tell you, you're wasting time and energy trying to talk to or convert these guys to any of your philosophies. But if you enjoy it go ahead, I enjoy reading your ideas and should mention that your line of reasoning is the direction America is gradually heading JMO.
You are 100% correct, we are gradually coming to Al's way thinking!! Have you noticed the increased gang populations, people walking into workplaces killing everyone in sight, baby killers, drug use, oral sex in the Whitehouse, school teachers having sex with their kids, pedophiles molesting young children, child porn, a government that is robbing us blind, T.V stations allow the use of the word Goddamn and bleeps out the word hell and ****, teen pregnancy, men marrying men, a congressman getting caught in a bathroom looking for gay sex, sexual abuse in the church, lawsuits galore, Vegas, the lottery, and the list goes on and on.
Keep up the good work.
By the way, even the most learned atheist don't deny that Jesus existed, they deny that he was God because they say there is no God.
When I was a teenager I went through a severe depression for about 3 years. I had 2 suicide attempts. My heart stopped on the 2nd they brought me back. On the last day of my depression I had a 357 magnum with hollow point bullets I was going to blow my head off with. That night on the darkest night of my life in my room the Lord of Glory filled my life with His love, joy and peace. That night I was born again. I'm 38 now and I have never been depressed again. God is real and the Bible is the Word of God. I used to curse Him as a teenager. And now I bless His name as someone who has received grace and mercy.
VaDwayne, when I mentioned Al's way of thinking I wasn't suggesting he approves of many of the illegal things you have mentioned here. Al has never struck me as anything but a believer in a government of laws. I think he is more about applying the law equally rather than not at all in many cases. Also, some of the things you mention are not new to our time, rather they are being reported quicker and more often and access to information is much easier and greater today than ever before which to some people makes it appear the world is going to hell. I believe otherwise.
When I was a teenager I went through a severe depression for about 3 years. I had 2 suicide attempts. My heart stopped on the 2nd they brought me back. On the last day of my depression I had a 357 magnum with hollow point bullets I was going to blow my head off with. That night on the darkest night of my life in my room the Lord of Glory filled my life with His love, joy and peace. That night I was born again. I'm 38 now and I have never been depressed again. God is real and the Bible is the Word of God. I used to curse Him as a teenager. And now I bless His name as someone who has received grace and mercy.
Glad to hear about your "recovery." And I'm sincere with that.
Now PROVE god is real! Don't refer to the bible, or "I got a feeling," or anthing other than proof that is repreatable. Most of the world believed the earth to be flat. Many different religions have their own god. I need proof. A photo would be a nice touch - autographed is a bonus.
Rick
------------------------------------ ILIAA
Training, Community, Support, and Success Independent Life Insurance Agents Assn rick@iliaa.org
I believe that science does a great job to show the work that God put into building this world. While some people keep seeing how science works so we don't need God.
If you can't see God's hand in all things, then even SEEING isn't enough.
VaDwayne, when I mentioned Al's way of thinking I wasn't suggesting he approves of many of the illegal things you have mentioned here. Al has never struck me as anything but a believer in a government of laws. I think he is more about applying the law equally rather than not at all in many cases. Also, some of the things you mention are not new to our time, rather they are being reported quicker and more often and access to information is much easier and greater today than ever before which to some people makes it appear the world is going to hell. I believe otherwise.
My guess is this, the United States has the issues it has because of the lack of faith in Christ. Simple as that.. Our morals, and yes our laws are based on Christian morals, are gone.
Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.
What kind of person would you become even if you FAKED believing?
Didn't God kill everyone in that Noah's Ark story?
Answer: That is correct. God killed everyone except Noah and his family. He killed men, women, children and even unborn babies and he did if for real - it is not "a story".
But that was not murder. It was "capital punishment". God is NOT against capital punishment. If fact God told Adam that if he ate of the tree of good and evil, then in that day Adam would die. As a side note, Adam did die that day, along with the rest of humanity who were in Adam when he did it.
Some people will argue that God shifted gears with Christ, that Jesus was all about forgiveness and things like capital punishment are inconsistent with Christianity.
That is a very twisted take on New Testament teachings.
Note for example that Jesus, who went to the cross for crimes that He did not commit, never, ever protested capital punishment. The only thing New Testament authors point out is that the crimes Jesus was accused of committing, were a frame up and that the real reason God let Jesus go to the cross was to be sacrificed for the sins of men.
The killing of the population at the time of Noah was punishment for sin. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorah was punishment for sin. Anyone reading those "stories" should understand that God is a righteous God, that His laws are not to be broken by men who God has created, and that men who break God's laws are eventually punished.
Read this from Romans 9:
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"26and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality." 29It is just as Isaiah said previously: "Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah."
While I appreciate that the judgement of God is not a happy topic, and not one many modern Christians like to discuss, it is a very real part of the Bible.
Once again, capital punishment is NOT murder, it is punishment. When a soldier kills an opponent in battle, that is not murder either.
And finally, I would be careful about accusing God of committing sin. It is something that He cannot do.
Some people will argue that God shifted gears with Christ, that Jesus was all about forgiveness and things like capital punishment are inconsistent with Christianity.
That is a very twisted take on New Testament teachings.
If you want to know what so-called "Christianity" is all about, see this. Below is an excerpt of Inherit The Wind (1960). I would suggest you substitute the name of "Barney" for "Brady" here as it might help to understand the meaning of this post.
Drummond: How do you know that God didn't spake to Charles Darwin?
Brady: I know because God tells me to oppose the evil teachings of that man!
Drummond: Oh, God speaks to you?
Brady: Yes!
Drummond: He tells you what is right and wrong?
Brady: Yes!
Drummond: And you act accordingly?!
Brady: Yes!!
Drummond: So, you, Matthew Harrison Brady, through oratory or legislature or whatever, you pass on God's orders to the rest of the world! Well, meet the Prophet from Nebraska! Is that the way of things?! Is that the way of things?! God tells Brady what is good! To be against Brady is to be against God!
Brady: NO!!! Each man is a free agent!!
Drummond: Then what is Bertram Cates doing in a Hillsborough jail?! Supposing Mr. Cates had the influence and the lung power to railroad through the state legislature a law saying that only Darwin could be taught in the schools!
Brady: Ridiculous! Ridiculous!! There is only one great Truth in the world!
Drummond: The gospel!! The gospel according to Brady!! God speaks to Brady, and Brady tells the world world!! Brady!!! Brady!!! Brady, Almighty!!!
Brady: The Lord, the Lord is my strength --
Drummond: Suppose that a lesser human being -- suppose a Cates or a Darwin had the audacity to think that God might whisper to him? That an un-Brady thought might still be holy. Must a man go to prison because he differs with a self-appointed prophet?! Extend the Testaments! Let us have a book of Brady! We shall hex the Pentateuch and slip you in neatly between Numbers and Deuteronomy!!
"All are reconciled does not mean that all are saved.
It does mean that God no longer has enmity towards anyone.
It is up to each person to accept that reconciliation.
It is our job to communicate that message of reconciliation.
Are you communicating the message of reconciliation?"
Reconciliation is a word that describes the same relationship to God that salvation refers to. We cannot be reconciled to God unless He has saved us, and if we are saved, we are reconciled to God. You cannot be reconciled unless you are saved.
Romans 5:9-11 (New International Version)
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
The word "we" refers to those to whom Paul is writing: the church in Rome. Notice that Paul draws no distinction between reconciliation and salvation.
Also notice that is "we" are "saved" from God's wrath and that prior to us being saved and reconciled, we were God's enemies.
NOTE: I did not author these words, these are what the scriptures say. If God was asking and taking my advice, I might try to persuad Him to be merciful to everyone, but I don't think God is asking or taking my advice on His position as set out in these documents.
Communicating the "Gospel" is something that I try to do. The question I have for you is what Gospel are you communicating?
According to Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, this is the "Gospel".
1 Corinthians 15
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
I wrote about this scriptural passage in my December 2004 monthly bulletin for Compulife:
I was catching flack from some of my subscribers who complained that I was mixing religion and politics, and so I began putting my Christmas reflections in special bulletins separate from the main bulletin. I encourage those who wanted to read them to do so, and for those who did not want to that they could change the channel. Here are those past Christmas greetings:
So the answer to your question is, yes, I am trying to communicate the message of reconciliation with God through Jesus. But for the most part I try to let the scriptures do the talking.
My biggest criticism is that modern Christians have abandoned the teachings of the Bible and have gotten away from true Christianity.
My political views are quite similiar, we have abandoned the laws of our Constitution and have gotten away from true Americanism. While the two things are not the same, they are symptoms of a very similiar problem.
And finally, consider this from Proverbs 14:11-12 (New International Version)
11 The house of the wicked will be destroyed, but the tent of the upright will flourish. 12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Al likes to refer to the exchange between Drummond and Brady as his response to me. He wants to call Brady, Barney. Fine, then I will answer Spencer Tracy's questions with my own answers, and not those of some script writer from Hollywood:
Drummond: How do you know that God didn't spake to Charles Darwin?
Barney: God created the earth and the heavens, that is what the Bible teaches. To the degree that Darwin argues otherwise, he contradicts the Bible which I believe was authored by God.
Drummond: Oh, God speaks to you?
Barney: Yes, the Bible is the word of God and tells me what God wants me to know!
Drummond: He tells you what is right and wrong?
Barney: Yes, the Bible explains right and wrong!
Drummond: And you act accordingly?!
Barney: I try to, but I am a sinner like all men.
Drummond: So, you, Robert Barney, through oratory or legislature or whatever, you pass on God's orders to the rest of the world! Well, meet the Prophet from Nebraska! Is that the way of things?! Is that the way of things?! God tells Barney what is good! To be against Barney is to be against God!
Barney: We live in a free country, not a theocracy. As a citizen of the United States each citizen is free to worship or to not worship God as each citizen sees fit.
Drummond: Then what is Bertram Cates doing in a Hillsborough jail?! Supposing Mr. Cates had the influence and the lung power to railroad through the state legislature a law saying that only Darwin could be taught in the schools!
Barney: Well Mr. Drummond, that is precisely what has happened. Today, the teachings of Darwin are considered the law of the land and the teachings of creation have been abolished. In fact you can't even talk about the fact that biological evidence and archaeology points to an intelligent creator, regardless of who or what the creator is. Perhaps you should watch Ben Stein's movie: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Drummond: The gospel!! The gospel according to Barney! God speaks to Barney, and Barney tells the world world!! Barney! Barney! Barney, Almighty!!!
Barney: Mr. Drummond, I think you are confused. I didn't author the Bible, I simply believe that the Bible is the word of God, just as those who founded this country believed.
Drummond: Suppose that a lesser human being -- suppose a Cates or a Darwin had the audacity to think that God might whisper to him? That an un-Brady thought might still be holy. Must a man go to prison because he differs with a self-appointed prophet?! Extend the Testaments! Let us have a book of Brady! We shall hex the Pentateuch and slip you in neatly between Numbers and Deuteronomy!!
Barney: No one should go to prison for expressing a religous view, whether it is acceptable or unacceptable to me. The first amendment to the Constitutioin is crystal clear. Let me read it for you:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I would remind you Mr. Drummond, that the men who authored that amendment were deeply religous men, just as I am. And while most of them and I deeply believe in Jesus Christ, I would not attempt to legislate Christianity as a national religion, anymore than I would legislate the opposite.
Last edited by Robert Barney : 09-27-2009 at 03:19 PM.
Reason: Posts merged
[COLOR=purple][COLOR=black]How to stay safe in the world today.[/COLOR]
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Today, the teachings of Darwin are considered the law of the land and the teachings of creation have been abolished. In fact you can't even talk about the fact that biological evidence and archaeology points to an intelligent creator, regardless of who or what the creator is.
I agree with Barney on this. I'm against prayer in PUBLIC taxpayer supported schools, but the theory of Intelligent Design is not prayer (TTBOMK.) I think it SHOULD be taught. (I think it is interesting as hell... more so than evolution... although I still favor the Darwin theory... not that it makes a big difference one way or another... except maybe on Jeopardy!)
But then again I think students should read Karl Marx as well as Adam Smith.
I have no problem teaching the theories of the KKK and Aryan Nations along with ACORN and MLK.
I believe in a LIBERAL arts education.
School is a place where everything should be taught... or perhaps taught is the wrong word... where students are exposed to all sorts of different ideas, theories, maxims, etc.
For those who don't want that for their kids, they should get vouchers to send their kids to the private school of their choice so long as it is accredited (i.e. they cover the basic "3Rs.")
And for the record I have no problem with a Christmas tree in the school, or a minorah, or whatever. For some reason we want to protect kids in school from what they are already exposed to in everyday life.
You want to know the truth? All of my well-to-do Jewish friends send their kids to the Jesuit middle and high school (if they can get in.... and it ain't cheap!)
Do the brothers (or priests or whatever) give mandatory religious class? Damn right.
And you know something? Every single Jewish kid I ever spoke to said they enjoyed the hell out of those classes and learned a lot.
And guess what. Not one Jewish kid ever converted to Jesus. I've been here 29 years and have watched two generations of Jewish kids grow up and the whole issue of religion study (not prayer) in public school is blown way out of proportion by all sides.
(I don't know if Jesuit has a morning devotional to Jesus but I rather doubt it... or they make it voluntary or something.)
Intelligent Design has a place in the theories of how the world was formed. If you ever saw the end of the movie of Inherit The Wind, you know that Drummond has both the bible and the Darwin book ...
Alone in the courtroom, Drummond weighs the copy of Darwin left by Rachel and Brady's Bible in his hands, before slapping them side by side into his briefcase. He leaves the courtroom and walks through the empty square.
With respect to education I put my money where my mouth is. For the most part my kids went to Christian schools although our emphasis in selecting those schools was always about academic quality, not just a Christian environment.
When we lived in Canada our kids attended a very well run Mennonite school. We aren't Mennonites and they actually had some problems with us and our kids. In particular we are not pacifists and Mennonites are notoriously socialistic. My kids had adopted many of my conservative political views and I am not an isolationist. That made for interesting fireworks in places like history class. But that created an environment where my children had to reason through those issues and defend themselves, and I think it strengthened their views.
When we moved to the United States, there were 3 priorities that dictated where we would live: school, school and school
That's how we ended up in a small town south of Lexington, Kentucky where our two oldest children attended a Christian, liberal arts college- one of the highest ranked at the time. Once again, the primary concern was academic excellence. We did not expect a school to teach children about our Christian faith, we just didn't want the school trying to tear it apart. As to the academic quality, when both of those kids went on to the state university for their Masters degrees they were 4.0 performers. I credit their Christian college experience with teaching them to study and work hard.
I think dedicated Christians make excellent educators because they see education as a very key element of their faith. It isn't just a job, it's a calling. And those who understand it recognize that Christians cannot shelter kids from the outside world. The correct way to prepare young people is to expose them to ideas that are contrary to Christianity and put those ideas into perspective with regard to the Christian religion. The tires eventually get put on the road and theory turns to reality. And if the tires blow off the car in the third turn, what was the point?
Much of education is "religion neutral". Most religions will agree that 2 plus 2 is 4 although some religions may not place much importance on knowing that. The Christians I know do put a great importance on reading, writing and arithmetic, which is why they have a good educational product and turn out winners.
I will leave you with a funny story. During the re-election campaign of Clinton/Gore, the topic of school vouchers was a hot button item. I called into the Kentucky PBS channel during a live panel discussion which included a couple of folks from the teachers' union.
I told them that I opposed school vouchers but not for the reasons that they might think. I said that just like Clinton and Gore, all my children had attended private schools and I knew that the private education was going to give my children a big competitive edge when they had to go out and compete in the real world. I then said that I opposed giving vouchers out because it meant more children would get that superior education and leave my children less competitive.
It was a live TV show, and you should have seen the looks on the faces of the teachers and the stumbling, bumbling response.
The truth is that our public education system has been compromised by lack of discipline, lack of competition (you can't fail kids anymore) and distracted by subject matter that is nothing more than mushy liberal dogma.
With respect to education I put my money where my mouth is. For the most part my kids went to Christian schools although our emphasis in selecting those schools was always about academic quality, not just a Christian environment.
When we lived in Canada our kids attended a very well run Mennonite school. We aren't Mennonites and they actually had some problems with us and our kids. In particular we are not pacifists and Mennonites are notoriously socialistic. My kids had adopted many of my conservative political views and I am not an isolationist. That made for interesting fireworks in places like history class. But that created an environment where my children had to reason through those issues and defend themselves, and I think it strengthened their views.
When we moved to the United States, there were 3 priorities that dictated where we would live: school, school and school
That's how we ended up in a small town south of Lexington, Kentucky where our two oldest children attended a Christian, liberal arts college- one of the highest ranked at the time. Once again, the primary concern was academic excellence. We did not expect a school to teach children about our Christian faith, we just didn't want the school trying to tear it apart. As to the academic quality, when both of those kids went on to the state university for their Masters degrees they were 4.0 performers. I credit their Christian college experience with teaching them to study and work hard.
I think dedicated Christians make excellent educators because they see education as a very key element of their faith. It isn't just a job, it's a calling. And those who understand it recognize that Christians cannot shelter kids from the outside world. The correct way to prepare young people is to expose them to ideas that are contrary to Christianity and put those ideas into perspective with regard to the Christian religion. The tires eventually get put on the road and theory turns to reality. And if the tires blow off the car in the third turn, what was the point?
Much of education is "religion neutral". Most religions will agree that 2 plus 2 is 4 although some religions may not place much importance on knowing that. The Christians I know do put a great importance on reading, writing and arithmetic, which is why they have a good educational product and turn out winners.
I will leave you with a funny story. During the re-election campaign of Clinton/Gore, the topic of school vouchers was a hot button item. I called into the Kentucky PBS channel during a live panel discussion which included a couple of folks from the teachers' union.
I told them that I opposed school vouchers but not for the reasons that they might think. I said that just like Clinton and Gore, all my children had attended private schools and I knew that the private education was going to give my children a big competitive edge when they had to go out and compete in the real world. I then said that I opposed giving vouchers out because it meant more children would get that superior education and leave my children less competitive.
It was a live TV show, and you should have seen the looks on the faces of the teachers and the stumbling, bumbling response.
The truth is that our public education system has been compromised by lack of discipline, lack of competition (you can't fail kids anymore) and distracted by subject matter that is nothing more than mushy liberal dogma.
I am a Mennonite and a pacifist, and I would be curious to know in which ways you feel the Mennonite church is notoriuosly socialistic. I would really value your viewpoints.
Re: My Church is Better Than Your Church
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