10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
I am a Mennonite and a pacifist, and I would be curious to know in which ways you feel the Mennonite church is notoriuosly socialistic. I would really value your viewpoints.
It depends on the sect of Mennonitism. I assume that you are not a "horse and buggy" Mennonite given you have to have electricity and a phone line to communicate on the Internet.
There are the black bumper Mennonites who will hook up to the electric grid and drive cars, but who will paint their cars black to make sure that they are plain and there is no bling.
Generally the more strict orders of Mennonites are highly communalistic. The barn raising is a good example. No need for fire insurance, the neighbors will rebuild your house or barn if they burn down.
As far a pacifism, I support your right to be a pacifist and will lay my life down to fight for liberty and freedom so that you can be a pacifist.
Keeping in mind that socialism is the oppositive of capitalism, I would argue that Mennonites frown on most things capitalistic.
To their great credit Mennonites are among the most generous of Christian groups. They are very devoted to providing aid to those in need and are intensely compassionate. I think that is very admirable but often it takes a much bigger priority than communicating the message of salvation through Jesus.
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And on one final note, I support your right to be a pacifist even if I don't agree with pacifism. I want to assure you that when I took the oath of citizenship:
"that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law;"
I meant every word of what I promised. I will lay my life down to preserve freedom and liberty including your freedom to be a pacifist.
Last edited by Robert Barney : 09-28-2009 at 04:40 PM.
Reason: Posts merged
You can't prove a negative. It's not for me to prove god does not exist. Prove god exists without using fiction (bible), feelings, or anything elese that is not repeatible scientifically.
People who believe in god do so because they want to - nothing more, nothing less.
Rick
------------------------------------ ILIAA
Training, Community, Support, and Success Independent Life Insurance Agents Assn rick@iliaa.org
It depends on the sect of Mennonitism. I assume that you are not a "horse and buggy" Mennonite given you have to have electricity and a phone line to communicate on the Internet.
There are the black bumper Mennonites who will hook up to the electric grid and drive cars, but who will paint their cars black to make sure that they are plain and there is no bling.
Generally the more strict orders of Mennonites are highly communalistic. The barn raising is a good example. No need for fire insurance, the neighbors will rebuild your house or barn if they burn down.
As far a pacifism, I support your right to be a pacifist and will lay my life down to fight for liberty and freedom so that you can be a pacifist.
Keeping in mind that socialism is the oppositive of capitalism, I would argue that Mennonites frown on most things capitalistic.
To their great credit Mennonites are among the most generous of Christian groups. They are very devoted to providing aid to those in need and are intensely compassionate. I think that is very admirable but often it takes a much bigger priority than communicating the message of salvation through Jesus.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And on one final note, I support your right to be a pacifist even if I don't agree with pacifism. I want to assure you that when I took the oath of citizenship:
"that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law;"
I meant every word of what I promised. I will lay my life down to preserve freedom and liberty including your freedom to be a pacifist.
You are correct, I am not a horse and buggy Mennonite. I still believe in simplicity. My explanation of pacifism- I will not kill for you, but I would die for you.If a man had a gun on you, I would hope that God would give me the courage to step in front of you to stop the situation. Many Mennonites and other pacifist have died doing service for their country. There are many other ways to serve your country too. I don't think we should get a free pass. If you are willing to go to war, I should be willing to work in hospitals, or where the government needs me.
You are suggesting that Rick "hedge his bets". I don't think that is a very effective Christian message.
Christianity is a revealed truth. No one, and I mean no one, can come to Jesus without a revelation from God that God is real, that He is Jesus, and that without Jesus we are at emnity with God.
And just because God gives you that revelation doesn't mean He will give it to everyone. All you can do is share the gospel message, which is quite plain. The message is that we are sinners, who need a Savior and that Savior is Jesus Christ who gave his life on a cross so that we could receive forgiveness for our sins.
That's the message - pretty simple. If a person sees it, and accepts it, then they are in the household of faith. If not, then you are not going to rationalize them through the door of heaven by negotiating.
And just because someone doesn't see it today, doesn't mean that they might not see it another day. Saul exterminated a lot of Christians before Jesus stopped him on the road to Damascus. That was Paul's revelation and many Christians don't get to have the face to face meeting.
My initial revelaton came on a 10 minute drive home on a Sunday night before labor day at the age of 19. I wasn't a Christian when I got into my car, but I was when I got out. I didn't hear an audible voice, but it became crystal clear to me that God was Jesus, the Bible was His book and I had to follow Him.
My initial revelaton came on a 10 minute drive home on a Sunday night before labor day at the age of 19. I wasn't a Christian when I got into my car, but I was when I got out. I didn't hear an audible voice, but it became crystal clear to me that God was Jesus, the Bible was His book and I had to follow Him.
What kind of acid did you drop before you got in the car? Or was it mushrooms?
This from the Apostle Paul (a Jew), in his letter to the Romans, chapter 2:
17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
And Paul said this numerous times in his letters:
1 Corinthians 7:19 (New International Version)
19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.
Hey Rick, I got issues with you saying you dont have to prove a negative. We rely on theory everyday, Theory of Relativety, M Theory, Evolution, Dark Matter. None of these things are absolutly provable by science but we create our world and foward science by them.
But my real issue is the conviction in which you say "there is no God", if you said something like "I dont believe there is a God" I would have to respect that as your faith or lack there of, whatever. But the way you so matter of factly state your belief as fact forces me to ask for your Proof. If you have none, you have none, I would not be mad at you. But then think about the convinction in which you state your beliefs.
Hey Rick, I got issues with you saying you dont have to prove a negative. We rely on theory everyday, Theory of Relativety, M Theory, Evolution, Dark Matter. None of these things are absolutly provable by science but we create our world and foward science by them.
But my real issue is the conviction in which you say "there is no God", if you said something like "I dont believe there is a God" I would have to respect that as your faith or lack there of, whatever. But the way you so matter of factly state your belief as fact forces me to ask for your Proof. If you have none, you have none, I would not be mad at you. But then think about the convinction in which you state your beliefs.
Reminds me of the agnostic with dyslexia who would lay awake at night wondering if there really was a dog.
------------------------------------ Spending Our Way to Prosperity
People who believe in god absolutely are certain that he/she/it exists.
Why am I not allowed the same conviction that there is no god?
Why must I prove god doesn't exist while others can take the opposite simply on faith?
I can't prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist either but both he and god are fictional characters.
Rick
Rick,you are allowed the same conviction as a believer. I was just giving you your own medicine. It's just hard to prove God does not exist is my point.
Reminds me of the agnostic with dyslexia who would lay awake at night wondering if there really was a dog.
It's murder if you take something that doesn't belong to you. We all belong to God. The good news if you're a Christian is that this world is the worst you'll experience. The bad news is if you're not a Christian, this world is the best you'll experience.
Everyone has been given free will by God to believe whatever it is you want to believe. I will respect your right to have whatever opinion you want to have and believe what you want to believe, but hope that you will come to what I have faith is the truth.
Re: My Church is Better Than Your Church
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