I posted this in another thread but with the way the discussion is going it probably fits better here.
Hunting is necessary to preserve the population and quality of our wildlife.
The following is one of the best examples of what happens when the balance of nature is upset, predators are killed off or leave the area and wildlife are not controlled by hunting.
The reason Roosevelt declared the area a national park is that he had hunted it for Mule deer and was so impressed with the trophy quality of the deer that he wanted to preserve them for all to see and enjoy. As you can see, just the opposite happened.
You just can't mess with Mother Nature without a plan. Once the predators were killed and hunting stopped the deer population exploded, inbreeding was prevalent the numbers grew beyond the carrying capacity of the land. Limiting grazing would have helped but by then the mountain lions that contributed greatly to keeping their numbers in check were gone.
Had hunting not once again been permitted and other measures enacted the deer population would have continued to die a very slow, painful death until all were gone.
A true conservationist, one who really cares about our land and wildlife, will understand and support the need for effectively managing our wildlife. Hunting is one of the more successful methods used to accomplish this today.
Those who criticize us who do hunt are saying, let the deer die a slow painful death by starving. Or, they are saying, we don't raise crops so we don't give a damn about our farmers and how many millions of dollars they lose each year because of deer eating their crops.
They know nothing about conservation and are voicing an uneducated opinion.
The Lesson of the Kaibab
Introduction: The environment may be altered by forces within the biotic community, as well as by relationships between organisms and the physical environment. The carrying capacity of an ecosystem is the maximum number of organisms that an area can support on a sustained basis. The density of a population may produce such profound changes in the environment that the environment becomes unsuitable for the survival of that species. For instance, overgrazing of land may make the land unable to support the grazing of animals that lived there.
Objectives:
Graph data on the Kaibab deer population of Arizona from 1905 to 1939
Determine factors responsible for the changing populations
Determine the carrying capacity of the Kaibab Plateau
Background
Before 1905, the deer on the Kaibab Plateau were estimated to number about 4000. The average carrying capacity of the range was then estimated to be about 30,000 deer. On November 28th, 1906, President Theodore Roosevelt created the Grand Canyon National Game Preserve to protect the "finest deer herd in America."
Unfortunately, by this time the Kaibab forest area had already been overgrazed by sheep, cattle, and horses. Most of the tall grasses had been eliminated. The first step to protect the deer was to ban all hunting. In addition, in 1907, The Forest Service tried to exterminate the predators of the deer. Between 1907 and 1939, 816 mountain lions, 20 wolves, 7388 coyotes and more than 500 bobcats were killed.
Signs that the deer population was out of control began to appear as early as 1920 - the range was beginning to deteriorate rapidly. The Forest Service reduced the number of livestock grazing permits. By 1923, the deer were reported to be on the verge of starvation and the range conditions were described as "deplorable."
The Kaibab Deer Investigating Committee recommended that all livestock not owned by local residents be removed immediately from the range and that the number of deer be cut in half as quickly as possible. Hunting was reopened, and during the fall of 1924, 675 deer were killed by hunters. However, these deer represented only one-tenth the number of deer that had been born that spring. Over the next two winters, it is estimated that 60,000 deer starved to death.
Today, the Arizona Game Commission carefully manages the Kaibab area with regulations geared to specific local needs. Hunting permits are issued to keep the deer in balance with their range. Predators are protected to help keep herds in balance with food supplies. Tragic winter losses can be checked by keeping the number of deer near the carrying capacity of the range.
I have no big issues with the NRA. There are many, many intelligent people who belong (I don't.). But I look at it sort of like AARP (of which I am a member) in that it is all about the money. AARP (and I suppose NRA) does some good things, but for both... follow the money.
What I don't understand is the "need" for the NRA. Didn't the Supreme Court just affirm the second amendment? Aren't we finally done with banning guns for sporting (target) use?
Personally, I have no problem with registering firearms if it might keep them out of the hands of a whacko. (It won't for criminals.) But it's not a big deal to me one way or the other.
My relatives who came out of the camps after WW2 said that if every Jew had a gun and knew how to use it... and did use it, there wouldn't have been a holocaust. Because of that, my parents (who were not in Europe) had rifles in the house (on a rack in the den!) and we'd often go up to our vacation property and go into the woods and shoot cans and bottles.
I was never good with a hand gun, but I was a crack shot with a .22 and still am today.
For some strange reason my wife (who has good sight in only one eye) is terrific with a "ladies" police special .38. I couldn't hit the wall with it but she puts them all in the center. She can't shoot a rife. I think its an upper body strength issue.
When I taught school way, way up in the mountains in Webster Springs, W.VA in 1969 (talk about culture shock) they would have "turkey" shoots on Saturday. They put up a 3x5 card. You paid a few bucks, and whomever put the most shot into the card won. I never did win but it was a fun way to spend a few hours on a crisp fall afternoon.
I was against hunting even back then but I didn't make a big deal about it because it was part of the culture and I wasn't going to convince anyone. The IQ level of that area was just above that of the average squirrel (which they also hunted... and would eat! Who would eat squirrel? Yuck! BTW I never saw or heard of anyone eating 'possum like in Lil' Abner.)
Yeah but have any of you whackos ever hunted pheasant? I did it for the first time two weekend ago. I think I'd rather hunt pheasant than golf. That's saying a lot. And that is one fine tasting bird.
I guess if God or the Big Bang didn't want me to kill pheasant they wouldn't have taught me how to pull a trigger (nor Mr. Remington how to build a shotgun). We are on the top of the food pyramid for a reason. Lions, or turtles, or doves, or snakes, or anything else could have come out on top but their damn DNA created by God or the Big Bang doesn't allow it.
Yeah but have any of you whackos ever hunted pheasant? I did it for the first time two weekend ago. I think I'd rather hunt pheasant than golf. That's saying a lot. And that is one fine tasting bird.
I guess if God or the Big Bang didn't want me to kill pheasant they wouldn't have taught me how to pull a trigger (nor Mr. Remington how to build a shotgun). We are on the top of the food pyramid for a reason. Lions, or turtles, or doves, or snakes, or anything else could have come out on top but their damn DNA created by God or the Big Bang doesn't allow it.
I would be one of those "wackos"!
One of my very most special, enjoyable activities to participate in. I grew up hunting pheasants on my grand-fathers farm in Iowa.
I usually go to Nebraska and/or South Dakota several times during the season.
Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson courtesy of Rick Blaine on the Topgunproducers forum:
"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Can it be supposed that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, the most important of the code, will respect the less important and arbitrary ones, which can be violated with ease and impunity, and which, if strictly obeyed, would put an end to personal liberty--so dear to men, so dear to the enlightened legislator--and subject innocent persons to all the vexations that the guilty alone ought to suffer? Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. They ought to be designated as laws not preventive but fearful of crimes, produced by the tumultuous impression of a few isolated facts, and not by thoughtful consideration of the inconveniences and advantages of a universal decree." - Thomas Jefferson
One of my very most special, enjoyable activities to participate in. I grew up hunting pheasants on my grand-fathers farm in Iowa.
I usually go to Nebraska and/or South Dakota several times during the season.
I can't go this weekend, the in-laws are going to be in town. But next weekend I plan on hunting pheasant Saturday and Sunday. I might even buy a deer tag, though I'm at a loss with what I would actually do with a deer. I've never hunted deer before but they have a few places that will process the meat around here. Maybe next year I'll try for an elk.
I can't go this weekend, the in-laws are going to be in town. But next weekend I plan on hunting pheasant Saturday and Sunday. I might even buy a deer tag, though I'm at a loss with what I would actually do with a deer. I've never hunted deer before but they have a few places that will process the meat around here. Maybe next year I'll try for an elk.
I don't know what state you live in or which one you are planning on going hunting in but in Missouri one can donate their deer to help feed the needy. Not sure what the program is called but I can take a deer to a locker and they will process the deer either for free or for a nominal cost.
I would recommend if you go Elk hunting that you may want to have the Elk processed and keep the meat. Elk is simply delicious. We prefer it to most wild game and definitely a better, more healthy alternative to beef.
1) The bible was written by men - it's fiction
2) There never was a flood
3) Since there is no god, we were not given dominion
4) Neither humans nor animals have a soul - when you're dead, you're dead.
Other than that, I disagree with the position that animals are inferior so it's okay to kill them. I feel guilty just eating meat but we have to eat to live.
But - we have a constitutionally granted right to bear arms. I won't have one but I'd be very happy if every other person had a gun. Just don't brag about killing something.
Rick
Only in California would you not be considerd a liberal jew.
Re: National Rifle Association
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