You are right in that you probably have not used those exact words, but correct me if I'm wrong in my assessment that you adamantly oppose any kind of public insurance program with or without private carrier participation.
You guys are great at saying what you are against, but to my knowledge only Winter has stepped up and said what he is for (but I forget what it was )
I do strongly oppose a public program. While the current scenario is certainly untenable, the government has proven to me over many years that what it's good at is waste and mismanagement. Has the government ever been known for efficiency in anything? Is that the way to "bring down costs"?
I have posted in the past that after much study, I believe the Dutch health care/insurance system is the one that makes the most sense.
Coverage is mandated, not employer-based, and portable. While I'm not generally one to believe the goverment should mandate much, I believe if people can show up at the emergency room and get treatment, they should have the means to pay for it.
It's a two tier system; tier one is a GI base package of benefits provided by an insurer.
Tier two is more "supplemental". You can pay for more if you want it - but it's not done on a GI basis.
This system keeps the healthy competition of private enterprise in their system. There is no "public plan". Premiums are generally collected through payroll deduction, with vouchers to help those in need.
The Dutch enjoy a high level of care, and currently spend 11% of GDP on healthcare, versus 16-17% for the USA.
You would never see anything like that here, it makes way too much sense.
Unfortunately, the blithering idiots we keep returning to Congress (our own fault) aren't smart enough to implement a good idea that they can't take political credit for.
I think it's because the majority of 'em are lawyers.
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[COLOR=blue]Don't steal - the government hates competition.[/COLOR]
Al - when you want to get a package some place overnight do you think of FedEx or the post office? Both offer the same service so why would FexEx be the first thing that pops into your head?
Truth be told, if we opened up mail to competition the post office would be out of business...which is why letters are not open to competition.
There is nothing the gov't can do that the private sector cannot do better. There is not a single example of it. Schools? Let me go take a peek at a few Baltimore city public schools.
That being said I'm partially on your side. Take med supps - issued by private companies but the benefits are mandated by the government. This way a senior can't get "screwed" onto a "Mega Life'ish" med supp.
I'd like to see the gov't get involved and mandate what the carriers can and can't offer. As it stands now almost every single health carrier takes advantage of consumer ignorance (think of any plan with "saver" or "right" in the name." That all needs to go away. Especially since those products are mis-priced to be profit mills.
------------------------------------ Health Insurance Agents: Training, Support, Discounts, E&O for $440 www.ihiaa.com
(Let me ask this. Do young people still sign up for the draft? Would they get caught if they didn't? Do you have to show a draft card to get a job as it was back in my day? What if you couldn't get a job without showing a health card... which would be able to be verified by the HR gal via a simple web search?)
Al is an example of those who supported the lib programs that destroyed California but who are still trying to Californicate the rest of the country. They will support in a heartbeat the idea that someone should not be able to get a job in the future without demonstrating that they have a health card. However, if we require any documentation whatsoever to demonstrate that they are here legally they will sick the ACLU on you. It's part of the health care without borders program.
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However, if we require any documentation whatsoever to demonstrate that they are here legally they will sick the ACLU on you. .
Winter's point is well made. I can't speak for all of those who are to the political left of Winter but I think that in this case Winter and his neo-cons ARE having success in getting their message across. More and more "liberal" people that I speak with or correspond are beginning to re-think their position on immigration.
While I have no personal problem with immigrants, legal or not, I would not object if you close the borders and/or deported everyone who did not have proper docs. It is one issue that does have traction in CA to the best of my knowledge. That and Winter's homophobic "let's hate gays" movement.
In many respects the people of CA are far more conservative than Winter understands... and if "conservative" is the wrong word, at least try "moderate."
The illegal immigrant issue is the most insane argument around. If you're caught here illegally you're deported - period.
I don't find it to be any kind of moral issue at all. If you're not supposed to be here and you're caught you're out. Period. I don't see any gray area at all. You either are or are not here legally.
The illegal immigrant issue is not a moral issue its a legal one. They have no god given right to remain and it is not immoral to return them to the country and circumstances from whence they came.
The public plan is against the constitution as is social security and medicaid and all the other entitlements that have been set up by the friendly neighborhood feds. These powers were meant to be held by the individual states. Just as it is unconstitutional by strict interpretation to have a department of education; it is also unconstitional to have a national healthplan.
We however out of apathy or self interest have forgotten that we are governed by our founding documents not the vapid desires of Pelosi and co.
In many respects the people of CA are far more conservative than Winter understands... and if "conservative" is the wrong word, at least try "moderate."
Al
Let me help you there. What you are saying is that you are beginning to realize that the people of CA are far more conservative than YOU understand. California is the land of Nixon and Reagan as well as the wackos in SF or of the SF mentality regardless of actual location. Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein, Sheehan, etc are just one piece of the landscape - and they have their work cut out for them as Obamania is replaced by fear and frugality.
Now that you are beginning to understand that about Californians, the next stage for you will be to understand that that is true for the country as a whole. Socialism and Obamania aside, this is still a center-right country and, as I have said repeatedly, at some point center-right is going to meet obamanics in a head on clash, just as is occurring in CA now.
In the countless times that we have discussed this roundabout before, you have always interpetted it to be denial on my part and others that Obama won big and the dems won big. And, I continue to say that I recognize the Obama control factor fully and agree that it is a locomotive. And I can also agree that the dems are in complete control of the legislature in CA. However, the backlash in CA (and as you have said, the fact that it is not all as liberal as segments appear) and the backlash brewing in the country (because the country is also not all as liberal as some segments appear) are real factors to be dealt with too. Just as real as Obama winning. Your comments in the past have always been the rote "The dems won, get over it, and you all live in Alabama in 1958." Fine, maybe you and Pelosi can go on a little tour around the Golden State and explain that to everyone, and the national dems can do the same. See how it works out. You might run into a little of that "not so liberal" that you are beginning to notice there in Shangri-La.
What Obama desparately wanted/wants is a bill passed before August recess because he knows, as any idiot would know, that Congress is going to get an earful when they are home, just as they did over the 4th. The Congress that goes home for recess will not be the same one that returns. The "folks" will be giving them something to think about.
Obama won overwhelmingly in CA, and the dems are overwhelming in charge of the Legislature too. No denying that. That is reality. Same on the national level. Brace yourself for some other things that are also part of reality. How about a few choruses of "Yes We Can" out there in CA. See if that helps the thousands who will have their programs cut in the next few weeks. Bring Barry out to have him to tell them they can accomplish anything as long as they have hope, and see how it works out after he tells them there is no money to go with the hope as with all his other programs.
Everyone is not liberal in CA. No shoot, Dick Tracey. You are about to find that out. As I have said repeatedly, martial law should be declared for the greater San Francisco military district. In addition, state computers should search the voter registration history of every CA resident. Anyone registered as a democrat should have their house seized and put on the block to pay for all the programs you wanted for the last thirty years. I am available to serve as Governor General of the SF Military District so just let me know. I know you guys like whips and chains so we might be able to put together a program you will like.
Ooops political reality has hit. The pendulum swung too far left now its swinging back. The conservative backlash will sink the dems just like in the early 1990's. The only question is who will be the next NEWT.
Good intentions are great! everyone is for them until they are handed the bill.
Maybe Rush Limbaugh...or Sarah Palin...or some other laughingstock?
The Republicans need to find a way to get in touch. They have become irrelevant, and are threatened with being extinct if they don't find somebody that excites the electorate (not just the religious nut-case right).
Maybe Rush Limbaugh...or Sarah Palin...or some other laughingstock?
The Republicans need to find a way to get in touch. They have become irrelevant, and are threatened with being extinct if they don't find somebody that excites the electorate (not just the religious nut-case right).
Maybe Rush Limbaugh...or Sarah Palin...or some other laughingstock?
The Republicans need to find a way to get in touch. They have become irrelevant, and are threatened with being extinct if they don't find somebody that excites the electorate (not just the religious nut-case right).
Bobby Jindal ain't it.
The process that has already begun is that many of the democrats will need to become so conservative, or at least back off from the socialism, to save their seats that the shift to the right will occur without a Republican leader and without regard to what the next presidential campaign will or will not look like. Republicans are on the wane and in disarray but the voters will make mince meat out of some of the dems if they try to align themselves with some of what is going on now. It may mean that they get beaten by a more fiscally responsible dem in the primary or that the voters beat them into a more conservative less-spendulus view. Either way, I dont believe in the Al view of the world, which is Obama was elected, the dems control congress and the train is just going to keep rolling because there is no Republican presidential candidate to stop them. That is not the only factor at play.
Of course this does play in Mitts favor. And yes he is a Mormon and yes he is dull. However, we have a president now of Muslim heritage so voters can deal with some religious untidiness if need be. Palin is like Huckabee. She can roll around the country and keep the conservative base entertained and remind them of a few things but she is not presidential material. Doesnt mean she couldnt have been VP. Biden is not presidential material either and drew no votes whatsoever in the primaries he was in. 1% or less maybe. Difference is, the Republicans had no charisma on their ticket other than Palin so she was carrying that burden whereas Biden wasnt really needed. All he needed to do was to stand there and look like he had foreign affairs experience and keep his mouth shut, none of which he was able to do.
As stated ad nauseum, we will not find out who Barry is and how popular he is until he runs out of money and is no longer able to promise people free stuff. That day is coming. Not right off but it is coming. Certainly this health care gig will take the last remaining dolllars if there are any. There wont be many follow-on acts like that or spendulus either so we are getting there. Most presidents have had more trouble with their own party than the opposition. The republicans are going to remain weak but he is still going to have plenty of problems from dems who know that it is the folks back home and not Obama that get them re-elected. The fact that Palin and Newt and Jindall are weak candidates will not save Obama from what is coming.
As stated ad nauseum, we will not find out who Barry is and how popular he is until he runs out of money and is no longer able to promise people free stuff. That day is coming. Not right off but it is coming.
This was about the funniest thing I've ever seen Winter post. I don't know much about him, but it is obvious he knows zero about American politics.
He theory is the same one we (those on the left) said about Nixon in 1968... that there would be some kind of magical "backlash" about the war and that the Reps. would be Nixon's worst enemy and that eventually a "peace" candidate would emerge who would, with a "mystical" Dem and Rep coalition, take down the Nixon presidency.
What we had was George McGovern, and Nixon squashed him like a bug.
If I didn't know better I'd say that Winter has a stash of some really good hash and that he does a cube before he posts here.
I hate to tell him that Goldwater didn't beat Johnson, Mondale didn't beat Reagan, and Dole didn't beat Clinton. When a president is personally popular, no one beats him. Carter was unpopular (never was too popular in the first place... if Ford had not pardoned Nixon he would have won... what an idiot) and Bush-1 blew it by promishing not to raise taxes and did... another idiot. "Read my lips" my ass!
With or without health care Obama will be re-elected the same way that Clinton was re-elected. Because as Winter simply does not understand, you can't beat somebody with nobody.
In the entire Rep. party there is not one person in office today who has the ability to out-debate, out class, or out-argue Obama. Limbaugh might have a shot, but as an ex pill-popper who bought himself out of that mess, he would have no political standing.
If the Reps block health care, it virtually insures Obama's re-election if not an even larger Dem majority in 2010. He will run against the "Dr. No" party and will rack up a major mid-term Congressional victory to say nothing of his own re-election.
Face it Winter, there is not one viable scenario that you or any other neo-con can come up with that will see you guys either re-capture both houses of Congress, much less the White House.
It reminds me of that oft-told riddle that went around during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war:
Q: Why will the Jews win in the Middle East?
A: Because in the entire world there is not one camel that can catch a Cadillac
Just an observation, but I get the impression that many Ohioans who voted for Obama won't do it a second time. Of course, GM closings (and other closings) are a factor.
True, Al didn't read what I wrote. Registering for the DNC list is free. I said Mass. had to chase people down to get them to sign up for free health care however my main point is no current proposal involves any kind of free care.
I think at best we may be dealing with free health care at 200% or below of FPL.
My point is Obama's going through all this work to get GI plans that without a doubt will cost "middle class" Americans around $500 or so a month for a family plan.
If that happens they'll sign up around 10% of the 45 million uninsured - that's it. Those obviously be the people who need a lot of care and current don't have a plan. The other 90% won't budge. Most are uninsured by choice.
Right now if my family signs up for the Bronze plan in Mass. it would cost us $745. Do you think Americans would happy with that? Hell no.
For the time being we can pass legislation requiring every state to have a risk pool and the gov't can offset the costs depending on income - also regulating the benefits of state plans so no state "pulls a Florida."
Re: Public Health Care Option
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