Carol, if you want I can get you a good quote for term life and you will at least know the costs and all. If you are not in CA I can't sell it to you but you can probably find an agent on this board to write it (or I can find one), won't cost you a cent.
Win, I have to agree for two reasons, 1. it was an inappopriate proposal and 2., the majors offer crappy term products. When I was with Northwestern Mutual they only had term to age 70....WTF? And it was only convertible like in the first five years. Junk!
Majors sell whole life, term houses sell term.
[COLOR=black]Thanks, Dave. I would not want to take your time, but if you can give my, just approximately quotes for term, I would appreciate it. This situation with Wl made me a little bit less confident in my agent. I’m not sure anymore that he is “on my side”. He didn’t print out a quote for term, he calculated and said it will be about $600/year. [/COLOR]
"............The only reason I'm messing with you and some of the other termites on this site is because of the product, not the client. With this particular lady I would look a little deeper first. Yea, I would lean towards a non wl product in her case. That makes sense. I just want to be certain it makes sense to her "after" she's reviewed her choices...
I disapprove of the snap of the fingers answers. It doesn't mean you have to apply physics, but again, everyone should have a full set of tools to offer to a situation. You may not need em, but carry em just in case.
As far as nasty people, every company has em. That why if you're going to work for an ahole... work for the one in the mirror.
I'm curious just what Carol might have rendered in this heart-touching counseling session of yours that "might" have suggested to you that a Whole Life policy WAS appropriate.....
C'Mon LGilmore, you tout the ever present needs analysis as though somehow this game is more difficult than rocket science.... and only those blessed with the sacred inner-working knowledge of a HP12C can do financial math.
Please pontificate on what scenario, given the facts that Carol ALREADY presented and being at least somewhat common sensical about the situation.....
What would Carol need to say in order for you to recommend that she purchase a whole life policy?
Just curious as to the answer, perhaps we can learn a trick of the trade here.
Fill the ins need completely and the only way to do that with one in her shoes is Term, and lots of it... Probably even laddered policies to account for the age difference and financial demand once the first child grads from college. So that might be an ART (kept for the remainder of college of first child) and a 10 yr term which works for the educ need and expenses of the 2nd child.
Thanks.
[COLOR=black]I have no idea what is “laddered”. Let me make sure I understand the rest. You mean ART for 2 years, should not be expensive. And, in parallel, guaranteed level 10-year term. Sounds reasonable. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]I would only add: This time period doesn’t cover my future mortgage, therefore it has to be convertible, without medical, just in case I will decide to convert it to permanent later on. Am I right?[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Thanks, Dave. I would not want to take your time, but if you can give my, just approximately quotes for term, I would appreciate it. This situation with Wl made me a little bit less confident in my agent. I’m not sure anymore that he is “on my side”. He didn’t print out a quote for term, he calculated and said it will be about $600/year. [/COLOR]
Hi Carol,
You can just (if you like) e-mail me your DOB and state of residence and I will e-mail you back exact quotes for term life insurance. Also let me know if you anticipate non-tobacco rating.
It will only take a few minutes and I have lots of available time between cases and such so I am happy to do this for you.
Could you please explain, what do you mean by “majors” here? I guess you mean big insurance companies. How about Guardian? Is it "major"? As far as I know they have good rating.
I don't know a whole lot about Guardian's term, but in my experience with Northwestern Mutual and MassMutual, I found that the major companies in the whole life arena tend to have somewhat weak products compared to the term houses like Banner and West Coast Life.
Often their term is only convertible for a few years (not to age 65 or 69 like the term houses), and often they don't have term life that goes beyond age 70.
They are not term life specialty companies and while they have it, are not really able to compete head-to-head with companies that specialize in term life products.
I don't know a whole lot about Guardian's term, but in my experience with Northwestern Mutual and MassMutual, I found that the major companies in the whole life arena tend to have somewhat weak products compared to the term houses like Banner and West Coast Life.
One thing that customers should take into consideration is the strength of the house. The financial markets are in turmoil and even some large houses are in trouble... witness the front page headline in today's WSJ about AIG.
Since I'm ultra-conservative(with client money) I will only write with a major house that has little if any stock market exposure and which has enough diversification to weather the next 36 to 48 months of further financial dislocations (and please pray that China continues to buy our debt or we're 'goin' down!') I know West Coast has been around for a long time, but I sleep better these days putting client funds into a company that I am 99.99% confident will be around twenty years from now. I can say that about NWM, MassMu, NYL, Met., etc. I can't say that with any of the term houses.
Yes you pay a bit more with the major mutual houses, but maybe you will sleep a bit better at night. Like everything, there is no right or wrong answer (although many here will purport that there is... and that THEY have it.) You just have to determine your own tolerance for risk and go with that. Personally, I will always pay for "top quality." Others are more able to "live on the edge" than I am.
Yes, I sell for Mutual of Omaha, but I am also allowed (by MoO) to sell any carrier I choose, so I'm not touting the major houses because I'm aligned with one (depending on whom you ask!), although I know I'll be accused of doing so by some people here.
Thanks.
[COLOR=black]I have no idea what is “laddered”. Let me make sure I understand the rest. You mean ART for 2 years, should not be expensive. And, in parallel, guaranteed level 10-year term. Sounds reasonable. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]I would only add: This time period doesn’t cover my future mortgage, therefore it has to be convertible, without medical, just in case I will decide to convert it to permanent later on. Am I right?[/COLOR]
ART- annual renewable term. This is pure life insurance with a rate annually based on your mortality (age group). Goes up every year but is cheaper in the first years since your mortality is lower.
Level- more premium early on to account for leveling the annual/monthly premium over a period of time (10, 20, 30 and so on). You pay more in the early years since it must be amortized over the level period and you mortality would be higher in year 15 than in year 1.
Laddering - mutliple policies equalling a desired death benefit.
I see where part ART could potentially be beneficial if you had a short window for that need and were going to drop that coverage amount in a short time.
Example: Need $350K long-term 10 years minimum, additional 100k until kid gets out of college in two years
You could buy 350k 10, 15 or 20-year level term and add on an ART policy
For $100k additional for the two years at the pure insurance cost and drop it after kid gets out of college leaving you with the $350k policy in force.
Given the costs of term these days, it is not much if any more expensive to purchase $450k 10-year term and drop the extra 100k in two years leaving a 350k term policy.
Since you want conversion privilege, I would think doing one policy and either reducing DB if not needed or converting to permanent would be a great option.
Good term products offer convertibility to permanent insurance with no underwriting. Just convert as you please up to the face amount.
Um, Al, all the majors re-insure their non-preferred rated polices through other houses. Only preferred get in-house coverage. All others get re-insurance.
One thing that customers should take into consideration is the strength of the house. The financial markets are in turmoil and even some large houses are in trouble... witness the front page headline in today's WSJ about AIG.
Since I'm ultra-conservative(with client money) I will only write with a major house that has little if any stock market exposure and which has enough diversification to weather the next 36 to 48 months of further financial dislocations (and please pray that China continues to buy our debt or we're 'goin' down!') I know West Coast has been around for a long time, but I sleep better these days putting client funds into a company that I am 99.99% confident will be around twenty years from now. I can say that about NWM, MassMu, NYL, Met., etc. I can't say that with any of the term houses.
Yes you pay a bit more with the major mutual houses, but maybe you will sleep a bit better at night. Like everything, there is no right or wrong answer (although many here will purport that there is... and that THEY have it.) You just have to determine your own tolerance for risk and go with that. Personally, I will always pay for "top quality." Others are more able to "live on the edge" than I am.
Yes, I sell for Mutual of Omaha, but I am also allowed (by MoO) to sell any carrier I choose, so I'm not touting the major houses because I'm aligned with one (depending on whom you ask!), although I know I'll be accused of doing so by some people here.
Al
Al, to further clarify this, all the majors who issue contracts for life insurance not at the "super preferred/preferred/select/choose the term here" rate send those policies out to re-insurance.
None of the "majors" are actually the backing insurance company for claims on policies that do not receive that underwriting status.
So, you may have a policy with Guardian, NYL or Northwestern Mutual, but if you are not accepted at the preferred rate, a third party company is actually insuring the DB, not the major.
"I'm curious just what Carol might have rendered in this heart-touching counseling session of yours that "might" have suggested to you that a Whole Life policy WAS appropriate..... "
Let's see I'm a bad guy because I want to know more about a client's situation. That makes me bad.. ok.
"C'Mon LGilmore, you tout the ever present needs analysis as though somehow this game is more difficult than rocket science.... and only those blessed with the sacred inner-working knowledge of a HP12C can do financial math."
A yellow note pad, a pen and asking questions and listening to the answers is a needs analysis? Ok.... listening is bad. offering choices is bad. ok
"Please pontificate on what scenario, given the facts that Carol ALREADY presented and being at least somewhat common sensical about the situation.....
What would Carol need to say in order for you to recommend that she purchase a whole life policy?"
Please I beg you, find exactly where I reccommended such a thing for her situation? What did I reccommend? ...let's see, know your client? show her the options available to her and let her decide.... yea, that's bad for the client.... ok.
"Just curious as to the answer, perhaps we can learn a trick of the trade here."
I doubt you can learn much from me. I wilt in the presence of your incredible abilities.. could you list them again?
I feel so intimidated by your use of Bold font and arrogant quips. Yep, you've definately put me on the ropes with no hope....
Could you please explain, what do you mean by “majors” here? I guess you mean big insurance companies. How about Guardian? Is it "major"? As far as I know they have good rating.
Guardian isn't competitive with term. I'm affiliated with them and have their quoting software on my laptop, but never sell their term product.
It's only convertible for the first 5 years unless you buy the extended conversion rider....It's overpriced...Also, the waiver of premium rider is weak.
BTW, I agree that whole life isn't a fit from your brief description of your situation. I love Guardian's whole life product, but it's not appropriate in your case.
Maybe if you learned that's it's OK to listen to a client, no matter what their situation is, you wouldn't to be here.. you'd still have
"have had as clients the following: The State of Georgia, Vanderbilt University, Augusta National (opps, wasn't supposed to say that one)..... JC Penny, ConAgra, FEHBP, 12 Hospitals in Georgia and numerous small group clients"
I'm really more curious about how you lost all that business and found the time to also
"Past DEA agent and FBI negotiator........"
How do you put all that in a day?
See, I read your stuff you threw out here and have to wonder how badly you messed up all those things you had.. to be here?
Care to offer any timelines?
I mean I have lost some good business over the years, but that's got to be some sort of record no? 12 hospitals? JC Penny? Con AGRA? wow....
So what's your real story?
Certainly nobody would walk away from all that by choice?
How did you fit being a DEA agent and FBI negotiator jobs while you were selling?
None of the "majors" are actually the backing insurance company for claims on policies that do not receive that underwriting status.
So you are telling me that Bogus Life goes tits-up that the policy holders as well as the beneficiaries (if any are in the pipeline for payment) are going to be made whole? Same with annuities and disability and LTC?
Explain to me how so many people lost their ass with Executive Life and Benefit Mutual (or was it Mutual Benefit?)
You are telling me that buying a policy from a Best Rated B- company is just as safe as buying from an A+?
Why does NYL charge more for a term policy than Banner? Because they can? Because they have to? If someone (say your mom or dad) were to buy a policy on your life with your son or daughter as the beneficiary and price was no object (say they are mega-wealthy) would you rather have it be from a "major" or a no-name?
Finally if the price is the same (within a few bucks) would you rather sell a plan from a big national well-known brand, or something client never heard of?
So you are telling me that Bogus Life goes tits-up that the policy holders as well as the beneficiaries (if any are in the pipeline for payment) are going to be made whole? Same with annuities and disability and LTC?
Explain to me how so many people lost their ass with Executive Life and Benefit Mutual (or was it Mutual Benefit?)
You are telling me that buying a policy from a Best Rated B- company is just as safe as buying from an A+?
Why does NYL charge more for a term policy than Banner? Because they can? Because they have to? If someone (say your mom or dad) were to buy a policy on your life with your son or daughter as the beneficiary and price was no object (say they are mega-wealthy) would you rather have it be from a "major" or a no-name?
Finally if the price is the same (within a few bucks) would you rather sell a plan from a big national well-known brand, or something client never heard of?
Asking, not debating.
Al
Whenever (very rarely) it has happened in my 15 years, the insurance commissioner took it into receivership and made it whole through the fund. Eventually another insurer took over (by choice or by order of the commissioner) and insured the contracts of the old insurer that were on the books.
Who is suggesting selling B- carriers? WCL is certainly well rated, as is Banner and many of the other "term houses". I, personally, would never sell for any carrier with less than A- rating (plus E&O does not cover carriers lower than A-, at least mine doesn't).
It's not about just a few bucks, Al, there are many other issues. The large mutuals and stock WL based insurers do not offer very competitive term in terms of more important benefits. Some examples:
-term to age 70 only (not age 95 like the term houses)
-5 year maximum time frame for convertibility (not to age 65 or 70)
-re-insured contracts through undisclosed third party companies
Let's be clear, the large stock and mutuals cannot compete with companies like Banner, WCL and so on for term business, nor do they want to.
Guardian isn't competitive with term. I'm affiliated with them and have their quoting software on my laptop, but never sell their term product.
It's only convertible for the first 5 years unless you buy the extended conversion rider....It's overpriced...Also, the waiver of premium rider is weak.
BTW, I agree that whole life isn't a fit from your brief description of your situation. I love Guardian's whole life product, but it's not appropriate in your case.
Hey JRoot, here's one I bet you've encountered that Al has not yet dealt with.
So your client buys term policy from major carrier for whatever reason and comes back oh, say table 2 rated.
Underwriter advises rating on policy and then you sit and wait for it to be issued. After a couple of weeks the policy comes in to be delivered. Reason for the wait, major was shopping re-insurance for the contract.
I've waited more than a month for a policy to be issued from NML because they were having trouble finding a re-insurer for it. They always find one, but sometimes it takes some time.
With a term house like WCL, rating is assigned and policy is in my hands for delivery within just a few days.
One other thing, and of course it has been a few years so this may have changed, but when I was doing term with NML and Mass, neither had any term contract with an Accelerated DB feature. At that time most if not all term houses offered that benefit, and at no extra charge.
Does Guardian have that benefit on their term products today?
Al, most states have a guarantee association of approved companies that cover to a certain extent the policyholders of a failed company. I don't know to what extent your state has, but you should find it at your OIC site.
States where companies are dominciled will also have some effect on pricing as the OIC's require certain levels of reserves to meet claim possibilities. Others may not underwrite as deeply and build that fact back into cost. There are many factors that go into pricing a policy from actual risk issues to market issues. Ever wonder how the game changes at different face amounts? I have found companies like Pru and ING (examples) suddenly pop to the head of the class at a million plus, but below that barely register as competitive.
Having worked for a big mutual, you are also buying it's name and claims paying ability.
I've been the last person a client's talked to, if you know what I mean. Just a few days past two years..... that large claim was paid within 24 hours of receipt of the certified death certificate.
The term companies I write with are rated very good, but I do shy away from the smaller asset based if all things are equal ratings wise. Usually a client picks from the top five by premium and rarely is it the cheapest premium because companies with a stronger asset base are maybe a couple dollars more....
Hey JRoot, here's one I bet you've encountered that Al has not yet dealt with.
So your client buys term policy from major carrier for whatever reason and comes back oh, say table 2 rated.
Underwriter advises rating on policy and then you sit and wait for it to be issued. After a couple of weeks the policy comes in to be delivered. Reason for the wait, major was shopping re-insurance for the contract.
I've waited more than a month for a policy to be issued from NML because they were having trouble finding a re-insurer for it. They always find one, but sometimes it takes some time.
With a term house like WCL, rating is assigned and policy is in my hands for delivery within just a few days.
One other thing, and of course it has been a few years so this may have changed, but when I was doing term with NML and Mass, neither had any term contract with an Accelerated DB feature. At that time most if not all term houses offered that benefit, and at no extra charge.
Does Guardian have that benefit on their term products today?
Dave,
When I was at NML, I experienced the same thing...we were trained to say it could take up to 8 weeks after you sign the application. Though it averaged 4-6.
I want to sell Guardian term because of residuals, but that would be totally self-serving because there are much better products on the market. That's one of the big reasons I left NML.
Guardian does have the "enhanced ABR rider" on all its life products free of charge. This is their accelerated DB feature. They have kept up with the times on that.
Re: Real price of WL insurance?
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