The upside: 1. Bill can still be defeated before the final vote by the people by keeping the pressure on 2. Those 4 so called moderate Dem. senators have signed their death warrants in next years election giving the Rep.'s at least a filibuster going forward
The downside: We are now perouisly closer to Gov. healthcare and all its consequeses.
The upside Part 2. : If Oboma signs a bill with a Gov. option, taxpayer funded abortion , etc., he will have signed his own death warrant for a second term ( on top of his disaster so far)
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Crapgame: "Hey Joe, how's it goin with that Tiger tank guarding the bank?"
Big Joe: "Notin. The Shermans broken down and nobodies gonna move dat Tiger out of the square".
Crapgame: "Then make a deal! Maybe the guy's a Republican?"
We are now perouisly closer to Gov. healthcare and all its consequeses.
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Actually I believe this bill decreases the chances of government takeover of healthcare. The most that we can hope for is a bill that is fraught with so many problems that it will collapse from problems on both the left and the right and then they will have to start over with scaled back expectations.. When viewed from that angle, this bill is the absolute perfect storm to achieve that strategy.
Health reform and increased government intervention is coming though. That has been clear for several years. For those who have not accepted that reality there really is nothing that can be said to help them. That doesnt mean that public option and mandate and all of that cant be fended off for a while longer because that is very doable.
Guaranteed issue and subsidies/credits for government approved plans are coming and those will be gamechangers in a major way. Most people here accept that now which is good. A year ago, not so much. Now the discussion is around being happy that the government has not precluded a future role for agents and trying to figure out whether the commissions will be 3% or 5%.
------------------------------------ Don't Cry for Me, I 'm in Argentina - Mark Sanford
The most that we can hope for is a bill that is fraught with so many problems that it will collapse from problems on both the left and the right and then they will have to start over with scaled back expectations..
I think nearly everyone grossly underestimates the extent of corruption in Congress.
Mary Landrieu several weeks ago: "I cannot vote for this bill"
Mary Landrieu after having $300 million put in the bill earmarked for her. "I think I can vote for this bill."
With $300 million she can further consolidate her power with specific spending of this pork where she directs. The money will be wasted, as it usually is in these situations. Folks, we MUST get term limits passed to stop this corruption. The most important legislation this century is being bought and sold, not voted on based on the merits.
Oh you think this bill is going to be passed and Obama is going to sign it by the end of December Ahhhh..........I don't think so.
This is going to be a bloodbath. And then they will either amend the bejeesus out of it or re-introduce it piecemeal to pick up the areas where there is consensus such as on GI and subsidy/credit. Plus it will take us pretty near up until March to get there.
What week in December do you think President Obama will be signing this? Oops. Let's not forget about that pesky little vote in the House too.
If the public option is taken out then that could accelerate things considerably but then it is not the same bill. My comments were about this bill.as presented.
You've promised us this "bloodbath" a million times now. How often will you cry "wolf."
You said the bill would never get out of House committee. You said it would never get out of the entire House. You said a Senate bill would never get past committee. You said the full Senate would defeat it. And with each prediction you've made you've promised us a "bloodbath" and yet from where I sit it looks like it's all been "easy" for the majority to get it's way. Arm-twisting and political bribery are not new to our system so I don't understand why all you neos are so shocked.
Winter, I love reading your analysis. But you have to admit a whole lot of it is wishful thinking on your part.
We are going to get either a public option or the Snow "trigger" which amounts to the same thing, just later on.
Get over it, neo-cons. If you had won the last election (i.e. you had not nominated the idiot Palin and the moribund McCain against a much more attractive candidate,) you would not be where you are now... moaning and groaning and whining and being "the obstructor."
Face it. Obama has staked his ENTIRE political "future" and legacy and re-election on health care reform. Don't you think he will do everything in his power to get it passed? That's how the system works, for better or worse. And do you neos believe that as a minority party in both the congress and the majority of the state that you can beat an intelligent and articulate president?
Face it. If a dumb-ass like Bush could get No-Child and Part-D passed, what do you think is going to happen when you have a president with more than 2 working brain cells?
What perplexes me even more is that it looks like you neo-cons are going to make even MORE money with a new GI mandated platform than you do with the current underwritten one. So what are you bitchin' about. And PLA-LEEZE don't tell me it's about "it's bad for the country" because everyone and their Palin hating dog knows that with you folks it's all about the money!!
That is a factoid that is neither here nor there. I dont question that at some point a bill with the same number may pass. The question is: how does it get amended along the way. Whether the bill ends out with mandate, abortion, medicare cuts etc makes a big, big difference to many people. Some bill is going to form the shell for having the health reform debate. A couple weeks ago we thought it was the house bill. Now it appears it is going to be the senate bill. My comments are about what will pass or not pass are around the content, not whether some bill with the same number will pass sometime.
Also, even if I were to accept your 97% factoid for the sake of argument, I would suggest back that we can perhaps agree that the number of bills that pass (unamended) where there were almost not enough votes to even get it out on the floor is probably less than 97%, eh?
It's going to be a bloodbath and if it is not a bloodbath it will only be because they cannot come up with enough votes to either amend or close debate so they just let it hang there.
If a final bill is passed, can it be un-passed later? Another words, can it be stopped even after it is passed? I can see a Republican congress and/or President being voted in the future...
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Political dissident who needs to focus on selling insurance to stay sane
They can hold up implementation. The bill passing is not a consideration but when the private carriers submit their rates along with the final rates of the public option? That's when it'll get interesting.
They can hold up implementation. The bill passing is not a consideration but when the private carriers submit their rates along with the final rates of the public option? That's when it'll get interesting.
If a final bill is passed, can it be un-passed later? Another words, can it be stopped even after it is passed? I can see a Republican congress and/or President being voted in the future...
Health reform will be tinkered with by every Congress to come for the rest of our remaining lives.
As with every other piece of legislation, you may have the initial enabling legislation that establishes a program but then the real action is to see what the funding looks like that goes with it each year.
How much the subsidy/tax credit will be for government approve plans may vary depending on whether the entire economy is tanking or not. Yet it is the level of subsidy that will determine the governments ability to carrot and stick people around.
Some type of reform will pass in late winter and it will have a projected price tag. How reality will change those assumptions before 2013 remains to be seen. But yes, this is not a constitution amendment. What Congress giveth here, another can taketh.
Sometime after the first of the year both dems and repubs will be coming back to Olympia Snowe to try to put a moderate plan together, including public option with trigger. No one here nor the dems nor the repubs were ready to hear that last month and still are not ready. That time is coming though.
Sat. Night Massacre AKA Senate Vote
Neoconservatism
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