Insurance Agent Forum

[TristanTLC]

Islam is not a violent religion, just like Christianity is not a violent religion. Being former Military and having been deployed to Iraq, Afghan, and Kuwait for almost 3 years; I have gotten to know many good Islam people.

Looking back into Christianity's own history, we've seen many examples of people doing foolish radical things in the name of God. Wars have been started, senseless killings, whole massacres of people not worshiping Christ the way we seem they should, and even in the 21st century hate crimes against homosexual because they are not following Christian value. These are extremist and radical instances of people taking their values and shoving it down someone's throat. Ever religion has them, from the peaceful Buddhist to the Kamikaze pilots.

I'm not here defending terrorist, only to say that there is never a good situation to group an entire people into the actions of a few individuals.

[ins.dave]

Originally Posted by dmiller90

The majority of the Muslims are good people who are innocently led to believe that Islam is a religion of God. These people are seeing the truth for the first time and are leaving Islam in big numbers.

Those who still remain Muslims after reading these verses, have no humanity or conscience. They must be filled with shame and shunned.

They are the terrorists or their supporters and the enemies of mankind.

They are in minority but still they number millions. Once the decent Muslims leave Islam, the terrorists will lose their moral base of support.

Ever read the Old testament?
See? This is why I detest "religion."
Not a belief in God ... religion. Over the centuries it has caused immeasurable suffering.
It divides. It doesn't unite.
This guy was a mislead, mentally broken unit. Just like the members of the Taliban. Connecting these people to Islam is like saying that all southern baptists are members of the KKK ...?

[dmiller90]

Originally Posted by ins.dave

Ever read the Old testament?
See? This is why I detest "religion."
Not a belief in God ... religion. Over the centuries it has caused immeaseurable suffering.
It divides. It doesn't unite.
This guy was a mislead, mentally broken unit. Just like the members of the Taliban. Connecting these people to Islam is like saying that all baptists are members of the KKK ...?

Sure have, and it explains why Israel, one of the 100 smallest country's in the World is the Protected Land.

And explains why they have been able to keep the Wasp away for 1000's of Years.

I just cant imagine what the families of these innocent people feel.

[healthagent]

Originally Posted by ins.dave

Ever read the Old testament?
See? This is why I detest "religion."
Not a belief in God ... religion. Over the centuries it has caused immeasurable suffering.
It divides. It doesn't unite.
This guy was a mislead, mentally broken unit. Just like the members of the Taliban. Connecting these people to Islam is like saying that all southern baptists are members of the KKK ...?

Very good post. This guy was not a Muslim, but a cowardly murderer. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you want to attach this to Muslims then how do you treat what Timothy McVeigh did. I will remind everyone here at the largest attack of terrorism on US soil before 9/11 was done by two white ex-Army vets.

[LGilmore]

"They should have pulled his membership long ago. "

Absolutely! I point this out for a different reason than you probably do. This clearly was a guy not cut out for military service, he's given indicators along the way.

The military takes great pride in shaping "men". Sometimes they have to realize a person's not going to fit into the peg and no matter how much push they provide, it ain't gonna work. This is a "private pyle" played out in real life. Somebody who didn't fit, they knew it and tried to make him fit. Didn't work.

The service may have to look at these "odd birds" and rather than make em fit, cut em loose and have them repay the money borrowed for medical school.

[Robert Barney]

The politically correct media is at it already:

Neighbor: Fort Hood suspect emptied his apartment - Yahoo! News


From the above:

An imam from a mosque Hasan regularly attended said Hasan, a lifelong Muslim, was a committed soldier, gave no sign of extremist beliefs and regularly wore his uniform at prayers.

And if he gave any signs of extremist beliefs, would the imam have said anything - duh! The problem is that in the Muslim world what this guy did was NOT extreme. Here is a bit from later on in the article:

At least six months ago, Hasan came to the attention of law enforcement officials because of Internet postings about suicide bombings and other threats, including posts that equated suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on a grenade to save the lives of their comrades.

I suspect, if the immam was honest, and they are not, he would agree with the above.


From the article:

Retired Col. Terry Lee told Fox News said Hasan had hoped President Barack Obama would pull troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq and got into frequent arguments with others in the military who supported the wars.

I posted a link to the interview that the colonel gave to Sheperd Smith at Fox - about 8 minutes long. If you took the time to listen to that interview, and then read the above pablum describing it, you would have a hard time believing that the description above fits.

It would be like describing a fatal airplane crash as an aircraft having had a hard landing.

Then toward the end of the story this:

Faizul Khan, a former imam at a mosque Hasan attended in Silver Spring, Md., said "I got the impression that he was a committed soldier." He said Hasan attended prayers regularly at the mosque in Silver Spring, Md., and was a lifelong Muslim. He spoke often with Hasan about Hasan's desire for a wife.

In an interview with The Washington Post, Hasan's aunt, Noel Hasan of Falls Church, Va., said he had been harassed about being a Muslim in the years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, and he wanted out of the Army.

"Some people can take it and some people cannot," she said. "He had listened to all of that and he wanted out of the military."

At least six months ago, Hasan came to the attention of law enforcement officials because of Internet postings about suicide bombings and other threats, including posts that equated suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on a grenade to save the lives of their comrades.

Investigators had not determined for certain whether Hasan was the author of the posting, and a formal investigation had not been opened before the shooting, said law enforcement officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to discuss the case.

Let me guess, the guy was getting a PC pass because he was a Muslim when the fact that he was a Muslim should have been a big red flag the minute anything on his record squeaked.

There have been some on this board who equate the Muslim religion to Christianity, claiming that the two are equally extreme and equally as bad. For the majority of us who are sane, and such claims are insane, we need to make it clear that such statements are not just made out of ignorance, they are made with malice.

Islam and its holy book the Quran are NOT a religion of peace. This guy's religion taught him that what he did was OK, and his Quran advocates and supports what he did. The notion that we cannot profile Muslims is disgusting given that many in our country are certainly profiling Christians.

And on a side note this:

Base officials lauded an officer, Kimberly Munley, who shot the gunman and was wounded herself.

"She happened to encounter the gunman. In an exchange of gunfire, she was wounded but managed to wound him four times," Cone said. "It was an amazing and aggressive performance by this police officer."

Once again, the best way to defend against an armed nut is to have someone else who is armed shoot them. That ends the problem. It is laughable to note that members of the military, who have carry conceal permits, are not allowed to carry their guns on military bases. That is unbelievably stupid.

[healthagent]

True. When I was in the Marines the only time I was allowed to carry my weapon was when I was on duty. When I went off-duty my weapon got checked in the armory.

[David C]

If someone shouts Allahu Akbar near me I can guarantee there are going to be shots fired. They're going to be 45 cal.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by LGilmore

The service may have to look at these "odd birds" and rather than make em fit, cut em loose and have them repay the money borrowed for medical school.

There have been reports that he made statements after American soldiers were killed both in the US and abroad that more muslims should rise up and take action against the US.

Assuming this is true, and I leave room for it to not to be true, then he needs to be court-martialed and imprisoned if found guilty. We are at war, he is a uniformed officer giving aid and comfort to the actions of the enemy at a time when they are about to go into a combat zone, encouraging fellow soldiers to work against the objectives of the United States Military, and so on. Sure he is a misfit but this isnt just some juvenile delinquent who needs to be booted out because he is a chowderhead.

For those who care to remember, this isnt the first time we have been down this road. You may remember that at the very beginning of the Iraq invasion a similar wacko opened fire and killed fellow soldiers for the same wacko reasons. My recollection is that he was Muslim as well, although perhaps not. I can't remember.

I am all in favor of not stereotyping all muslims but lets not get so pc and spiritually fluffy that we do not act with full knowledge that their are enemy collaborators within the ranks, however we may care to word it.

I am not qualified to judge whether a muslim foaming at the mouth wanting to kill americans is just a psychological misfit versus a trained warrior serving his army. It becomes less academic once the shots begin or the plane flies into the towers. If the allegations of this most recent wacko are true then he needs to be tried and executed if found guilty. It is part of the American psyche now to try to find out what his psychosis and social sorry-arsed story must be so that he can get treatment. He may simply have the same disease that a kamakazi pilot has right about the time they get your ship in their sights. That is not a good time to try to figure out how we "feel" about it.

Saddam shouted Allah Akbar too right when they pulled the trap door. Well then a great big Allah Akbar to ya Saddam and have a nice day too.

[Robert Barney]

Some more "do as I say, not as I do" from the Hypocrite in Chief:

Obama says don't jump to conclusions on shooting

Contrast that with this:

YouTube - Obama: Cambridge Cops "Acted...

Apparently it is OK for Obama to jump to conclusions, when a cop arrests someone, but it's not OK for us to jump to conclusions when a Muslim wearing a U.S. military uniform shoots a whole group of unarmed military men and women while they are standing in line for inoculations.

[LGilmore]

"There have been reports that he made statements after American soldiers were killed both in the US and abroad that more muslims should rise up and take action against the US."

If these are true, then yes, they should have handled it then. He did become a disipline problem, cause he wanted out. I think this may turn out to be a version of a pissing match that just upped the ante too far. He wanted out, they wanted a commitment, he stirred the pot, they were going to ship him out.

What I am saayying is waaay back as a medical student he was exhibiting problem behavior. Problems really stemming around taking the money from Uncle Sam for med school and not really being cut out for a military life. Once in, it is hard for Sam to let go. Not everybody can have their will bent into compliance. Some go off the deep end. I think this guy did as an act of desperation.

My point is, somewhere along the line, someone should have just told him "Ok, just start paying us back with 10% interest" and we'll dishonorably discharge you. Long before this happened. Not everybody bends to the will, some snap.
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"There have been some on this board who equate the Muslim religion to Christianity, claiming that the two are equally extreme and equally as bad."

Religion, just like guns aren't bad. It's what somebody does with them that determines the viewpoint.


" For the majority of us who are sane"

Are you including yourslef in that mix Bob?

Not quite sure unless you use just as broad a brush here as you do with those you disagree with.

" Once again, the best way to defend against an armed nut is to have someone else who is armed shoot them. That ends the problem. It is laughable to note that members of the military, who have carry conceal permits, are not allowed to carry their guns on military bases. That is unbelievably stupid. "

Remember FRAGING?

You're certain it's a good idea to arm everybody? You're certain you're smarter than the command at bases where lots of things from infeldelity on to drug deals and gang afflitaions go on... It just be daily news and open season on bases. Good idea Bob.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by LGilmore

"There have been reports that he made statements after American soldiers were killed both in the US and abroad that more muslims should rise up and take action against the US."

If these are true, then yes, they should have handled it then. He did become a disipline problem, cause he wanted out. I think this may turn out to be a version of a pissing match that just upped the ante too far. He wanted out, they wanted a commitment, he stirred the pot, they were going to ship him out.

What I am saayying is waaay back as a medical student he was exhibiting problem behavior. Problems really stemming around taking the money from Uncle Sam for med school and not really being cut out for a military life. Once in, it is hard for Sam to let go. Not everybody can have their will bent into compliance. Some go off the deep end. I think this guy did as an act of desperation.

My point is, somewhere along the line, someone should have just told him "Ok, just start paying us back with 10% interest" and we'll dishonorably discharge you. Long before this happened. Not everybody bends to the will, some snap.

True and not to beat this to death but I am saying we are following a contemporary American model of evaluating this which is to see what his pyschological problem was to make him go off the deep end. He may simply be an enemy collaborator even if working solo and should be shot. Again, whether a kamakai pilot is suffering from some pyschological condition or whether he is just obsessed with serving his cause or whether being obsessed with serving his cause is a pychological condition, I dont know. He is an enemy combatant in the end.

It is only a matter of months before we start seeing suicide bombers and IED's being set off in this country and in the UK as radical islam advances its cause. Probably it will take us about five years after it starts to get real about why it is happening. Maybe their mother fed them off the left tit rather than the right, and oh yeh, (being a lib here for a minute) let's not forget about those American troops on foreing soil so that explains everything.

Let me say this. I am willing to flex along with discussions that point out that not all muslims are wackos and not all christians are wackos and so on. At the same time, we have jews, christians, and muslims in the mideast but if I hear that someone has walked into a crowd of school children with dynamite strapped on, I am going to take a wild and crazy guess that it is not a jew or a christian. Call if profiling or knee-jerk reaction based on stereotype or whateever. So I keep my mind open but no so frigging wide that my brain falls out on to the floor. There is a toxicity running through Islam that only Islam can fix.

[ins.dave]

Originally Posted by Winter

True and not to beat this to death but I am saying we are following a contemporary American model of evaluating this which is to see what his pyschological problem was to make him go off the deep end. He may simply be an enemy collaborator even if working solo and should be shot. Again, whether a kamakai pilot is suffering from some pyschological condition or whether he is just obsessed with serving his cause or whether being obsessed with serving his cause is a pychological condition, I dont know. He is an enemy combatant in the end.

It is only a matter of months before we start seeing suicide bombers and IED's being set off in this country and in the UK as radical islam advances its cause. Probably it will take us about five years after it starts to get real about why it is happening. Maybe their mother fed them off the left tit rather than the right, and oh yeh, (being a lib here for a minute) let's not forget about those American troops on foreing soil so that explains everything.

Let me say this. I am willing to flex along with discussions that point out that not all muslims are wackos and not all christians are wackos and so on. At the same time, we have jews, christians, and muslims in the mideast but if I hear that someone has walked into a crowd of school children with dynamite strapped on, I am going to take a wild and crazy guess that it is not a jew or a christian. Call if profiling or knee-jerk reaction based on stereotype or whateever. So I keep my mind open but no so frigging wide that my brain falls out on to the floor. There is a toxicity running through Islam that only Islam can fix.

This is the sh*t that just does me in.
In nature there will be those of us that are not wired correctly. Sad but true. In my own family this is the case.
Such a creature, although given equal opportunity, has a self destructive tendency and you can't change that.
This guy's parents seemed solid. He was educated.
Millions would have killed to have his opportunities.
He was also nuts. End of story. If he hadn't shot those people because he was Muslim than, in his mind, he would have found another reason to do so. Did I mention that he is crazy? Sometimes in nature a five year old will come down with cancer; a plan will crash into someone's house and kill them or a cog inside someone's head work's its way loose and this kind of thing happens. Put away the book of fairy tales that all end with they lived happily ever after and likewise such expectations? Enough asking why? Raise hell, push forward into the never and let the Al3's of this world ponder the reason why "Nidal" didn't turn out to be a happy camper?

[Winter]

Originally Posted by ins.dave

This is the sh*t that just does me in.
In nature there will be those of us that are not wired correctly. Sad but true. In my own family this is the case.
Such a creature, although given equal opportunity, has a self destructive tendency and you can't change that.
This guy's parents seemed solid. He was educated.
Millions would have killed to have his opportunities.
He was also nuts. End of story. If he hadn't shot those people because he was Muslim than, in his mind, he would have found another reason to do so. Did I mention that he is crazy? Sometimes in nature a five year old will come down with cancer; a plan will crash into someone's house and kill them or a cog inside someone's head work's its way loose and this kind of thing happens. Put away the book of fairy tales that all end with they lived happily ever after and likewise such expectations? Enough asking why? Raise hell, push forward into the never and let the Al3's of this world ponder the reason why "Nidal" didn't turn out to be a happy camper?

There is actually lib thinking embedded in your analysis. Why do you assume that he was crazy or mentally disturbed versus just collaborating with the enemy. We are at war. Some of these wackos sympathize with the enemy's military objective. I dont know whether he was crazy or not yet. If the Japanese had won, some of the wacko banzai types might have been as happy as a clam at high tide and integrated well into that society. We are part of a naive generation of Americans that thinks that anyone who wants to kill us must be a Charles Whitman type whose father secretly molested them. Some of them simply are fighting or suicide-bombing for the enemy. Maybe he was just a kamakaze fighter in his own mind as with the wacko in Bagdad who did that at the beginning of the Iraq war. These are just guerilla fighters doing their thing along with the dozens and dozens of other terrorists who have been foiled in their attempts to attack military bases. We are tyring to psychonalyze them. Maybe they are just islamic guerilla fighters.

For consideration anyway.

[Robert Barney]

Islam is NOT a religion of peace.

The majority of Muslims are not a problem because the majority have a nominal adherence to the religion. They are no different than nominal Catholics who will say that they are Catholics and then proceed to disagree with everything that the Catholic church believes and teaches.

Nominal muslims are, for the most part, no different than nominal members of other religions. They don't really believe what the religion teaches they just lean that way.

That is not what I am talking about when I say that Islam advocate violence towards non-Muslims.

A devoted follower of Islam, who believes that the Quran is the word of god, and that Muslims should do exactly what it says, is going to be a militant extremist. He/she is going to believe that non-Muslims are infidels and that they need to be exterminated. That's not me making it up, that is what Islam teaches, if you care to pay attention.

A devoted follower of Judaism, who believes that the Torah is the word of God, and that Jews should do exactly what it says, is going to shun non-Jews. He/she is going to believe that non-Jews are unclean and that he/she should not associate with them.

A devoted follower of Christianity, who believes that the Bible is the word of God, and that Christians should do exactly what it says, is going to go into all the world and preach the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. If people reject the Christian message, then believers are told to leave and shake the dust off their feet, as a sign that the message was rejected.

Neither Judaism or Christianity advocate the extermination of non-believers as a policy of the religion. Islam does.

Christians evangelize, Jews shun, and Muslims kill.

It's a heck of a difference if you care to pay attention.

And as long as ignorant Americans continue to ignore that reality, you can count on Muslims taking the fight to us while we hope to rationalize and negotiate with them. A devoted Muslim is only going to keep you talking until he can position himself to cut your throat.

[LGilmore]

Bob, you've kinda gone off the deep end and your postings don't deserve comment because it will only lead you to believe yourslef rightous. nuff said.
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"True "

We agree more than we disagree on this. I don't think we need to delve deep into his physci at all. Most headshrinkers chose the profession to deal with their own problems first. My point has been more about the other end, how does the military decide to deal with people like this? He's not the only guy trying to opt out after taking full advantage of uncle sam.

I don't think he's a part of any organized anything. I think he felt he could get the free lunch from the military which paid for his advanced education and gave him a commission for basically finishing school. Uncle Sam forked over about a quarter mill plus for that medschool education and the shooter went along with the program "until" Uncle Sam started to want something back from him, that he didn't feel he had to give or wasn't comfortable with. Then it became a pissing match.

My point is to look back at the how and why this guy got there and evaluate that. The armed services approach med school students with the same criterion that a Primerica GA does... are you breathing? Would you like $40,000 a year for medschool and upon graduation become a ranked officer?

I know, my kid was approached by all branches. It's a great offer, as long as you're willing to serve a year for every year they cut you a check. Alot of kids take them up on it. Some are going to be great Md.s and officers, others just didn't want student debt and this was an easy way to take care of it. I'm thinking the shooter fell into this latter category, easy money and didn't understand the commitment side of the deal. I think it was less a religous or ethnic plot than just one person's selfish view of how they were supposed to repay uncle sam.

[Robert Barney]

Originally Posted by LGilmore

Bob, you've kinda gone off the deep end and your postings don't deserve comment because it will only lead you to believe yourslef rightous. nuff said.

So you are in possession of facts that would demonstrate I am wrong but don't want to share them because... I might think I am right?

You feel like I am wrong but you are basing those feelings on what? Your idea of what these religions teach and believe?

Please, explain where I have gone wrong and please, be specific. I do much better when people provide facts.

[0b1kanobee]

Is the irony of this event not obvious? Think about it. A military base full of trained military personnel, and not a single one of them with a loaded gun. Except the bad guy, of course. But isn't that always the case?

And of course the other irony - it took a civilian to save the soldiers.

What the %#+^#*& is going on here?

[Robert Barney]

Originally Posted by 0b1kanobee

Is the irony of this event not obvious? Think about it. A military base full of trained military personnel, and not a single one of them with a loaded gun. Except the bad guy, of course. But isn't that always the case?

And of course the other irony - it took a civilian to save the soldiers.

What the %#+^#*& is going on here?

As mentioned before, Federal facilities, including military bases, are "gun free zones". Individuals, legally licensed to carry guns, are prohibited from doing so by Federal Law - making military bases as safe as universities.

Sad but true.

On another note, here's a little more on the "doer":

Army Shooter Was on Radical Internet Postings

[Winter]

Originally Posted by 0b1kanobee

Is the irony of this event not obvious? Think about it. A military base full of trained military personnel, and not a single one of them with a loaded gun. Except the bad guy, of course. But isn't that always the case?

And of course the other irony - it took a civilian to save the soldiers.

What the %#+^#*& is going on here?

An additional irony is that we are patching this guy up and getting him to recover from gunshot wounds so that he can be investigated and tried.

Hopefully in the end he will court-martialed and shot again. Although probably he will end up doing community service with Acorn in San Francisco and sue the government for failing to stop the alleged racial taunts.