I went to go see this tonight with the wife and I was wondering what effect this may have and your guys opinion on are ability to sell health insurance after this movie? Little or no effect or actually will the bad press cause people to want health insurance?
Even if 20,000,000 people went to see that fat glutton's movie, it will have the same effect of Maxine Waters screaming at the top of her lungs (regarding the possible closure of Martin Luther King Jr. Hosptial in South LA after a woman who had come in daily for two weeks complaining of pain, was checked and found nothing, yet kept coming, and one day she did die of a bowel obstruction) If this isn't the case for universal health care I don't know what is!
And the public cheered!
What does this all mean? MLK hospital is already run by the government. Therefore, universal health care would have absolutley had no effect whatsoever.
Now, I would question ANYONE ON THIS FORUM as to why they would give Michael Moore one dollar! The only way I would see his movies would be to sneak in after paying for another, and since I don't do that, I won't be seeing his movies. Any one of them.
Michael Moore is a manipulative predator, but a rich one now.
Oh, and by the way, what makes you think that people without health insurance will see the movie? Everyone's who's a member of SAG has access to health insurance.
Even if 20,000,000 people went to see that fat glutton's movie, it will have the same effect of Maxine Waters screaming at the top of her lungs (regarding the possible closure of Martin Luther King Jr. Hosptial in South LA after a woman who had come in daily for two weeks complaining of pain, was checked and found nothing, yet kept coming, and one day she did die of a bowel obstruction) If this isn't the case for universal health care I don't know what is!
And the public cheered!
What does this all mean? MLK hospital is already run by the government. Therefore, universal health care would have absolutley had no effect whatsoever.
Now, I would question ANYONE ON THIS FORUM as to why they would give Michael Moore one dollar! The only way I would see his movies would be to sneak in after paying for another, and since I don't do that, I won't be seeing his movies. Any one of them.
Michael Moore is a manipulative predator, but a rich one now.
Oh, and by the way, what makes you think that people without health insurance will see the movie? Everyone's who's a member of SAG has access to health insurance.
Bill,
I agree with you 100%. I will never let that fat lib looser make one dime off of me. I only wish he would have stayed in Cuba. I do not see how any thinking person would want the government running health care. Why would people want the same kind of folks at the DMV and other government agencies running health care.
Look at all of the things government dose and dose bad. Do you want these same people running health care. If so maybe you need to go see a mental doctor. Because you need help.
Personally, I find Michael Moore and his movies to be entertaining, and I found Sicko to be the same. That being said, you have to take it with a grain of salt. Will this movie have an effect on health care? No. Is it interesting? Yes. I actually enjoyed seeing how health care is done in other countries. I'm not worried that we will ever have national health care in the US. Quite simply, it's a running issue, such as gay marriage, and abortion. If any of those things go away as issues, what would the candidates have to run on (for or against)?
Love him or hate him, what the guy has done for documentary makers around the country is amazing. He has taken a form of film making that used to be for educational purposes only and brought it to the mainstream. Oh well... I'm sure most of you on here disagree with me, but I do like his films.
Look at all of the things government dose and dose bad. Do you want these same people running health care. If so maybe you need to go see a mental doctor. Because you need help.
Yeah, that's the attitude I want to hear. You sound worse than my screaming liberal friends.
Look. The system does not work now and is not sustainable. There are tens of millions of people who are at risk of losing everything they own... as well as their lives under the current sytstem.
We have public schools... but private schools too.
We have public parks... but private parks too.
We have public welfare... but private charities too.
We have public utilities... but we private ones as well.
And we have public medicaid and medicare... but private plans as well.
I don't care if the government runs a system or Kaiser runs a system of national health care... so long as there is a safety net under each child and adult CITIZEN. And as long as I have a choice to be in the pubic plan or adopt a private plan, I'm OK with it. I just want something to work.... even if I'm legislated out of a 'job.'
Of course a public system will not work well and will waste a ton of money... but the private sector does that now. It's just a question of degree.
Here is how we do this. We offer 5,000 college grads EACH YEAR the option to get a full-bore tuition-free admission to med school, along with a tax-free living allowance of say $25,000 a year. We trim med school down by one year to three. Upon graduation each new doctor gets $45,000 a year tax free salary and is assigned a job somewhere in the USA. Each year each doc gets a $5,000 tax0free raise. Each doc must serve in "free" public health (treating people... not lab or research) for SEVEN YEARS. At that time they can go private.
Do the math. It would not cost even near what we spend in Iraq each year. It probably won't even cost close to what we spend in meaningless farm subs we pay for NOT growing food! The money is there. What is needed is a leader that all sides have trust and faith in to get the job done. We need a JFK.... young, articulate, full of hope and promise and who wants to make change happen... someone who believes "Ask not what your country can do for you..."
Why stop at national health care. Why not have national home owners insurance, national auto insurance, national life insurance, national disability insurance?
Why do you wish for the government to take away choices from people. Some folks want to keep the risk for themselves. Others buy insurance and transfer that risk to an insurance company. Some do not want to buy life insurance, health insurance and other kinds of insurance. I think they should have that right.
I see that you disagree with personal choice. You think the government should be able to force people to buy health insurance as most libs do. Just as libs are forcing me and other tax payers to pay for medicaid and medicare.
I want the choice not to pay for others insurance what about my choice? Why can I not opt out? Why do you and others make me pay for your wishes. I'll say this let's have national health care. Anyone that wants to opt out let us do it. The government will not go for the because they know everyone that works and has their own health insurance will opt out more than likely. Then they would not have the funds for national health insurance.
I see that you disagree with personal choice. You think the government should be able to force people to buy health insurance as most libs do. Just as libs are forcing me and other tax payers to pay for medicaid and medicare.
And they make you pay school taxes to support the public schools. I'm sure you don't want ot pay those. So did you send your kids to private schools for 12 years?
You have to pay utility taxes for your water and garbarge? But I suppose you could opt out of that and carry water from a well?
And you have to pay sales taxes to keep the parks open, provide for police and fire protection. Personally I think that if you wish to opt out of those, then if there is a fire at your house we just let it burn to the ground.
And you have to pay federal taxes to keep up an army, navy air force etc. Had we all taken your position we'd be speaking German on this board.
I don't know where you get this idea that throughout history we've had a lot of personal choice when it comes to public policy. Most societies have had very little personal choice... from what you were to do (caste system) to whom you would marry (arranged) to what religion you were to belong to (the Inquisition.)
We are all interdependent on each other... humans are badly prepared for living on the earth. Compared to most animals we are poorly equiped to protect ourselves from the elements, we have poor hearing, smell, and sight for hunting, it takes 15 or so years to reach adulthood, and we are rather frail in composition when we do.
We are sociatal animals and that in order to survive we need to work together, everyone contributing someting to the survival of the specie. The history of humans has been a history of the continued limitation of 'personal choice' for the simple reason that if we don't hang together, we will all hang separately, as Ben Franklin once said.
It would be good if our collective choices were more rational, but because public policy is the outgrowth of competing personal ambitions, needs, wants, and desires; and given the difficulty of humans to reach compromise without war, it's amazing we get any public policy at all.
The REASON we have public schools, a public retirement system (Social Security) and a public medical plan for seniors is becasue the private sector could not or would not meet the need. Read your history. Why did the country welcome Social Security in the 1930s. Why did we enact Medicare in the 1960s. And why did we adopt a system of public education in the early 1900s?
We WILL have a form of national healthcare. And all the insurance agents, doctors, underwriters, hospitals, and angels in heaven saying we won't or shouldn't, will not make a difference. Get used to it because it is going to happen... the same way Social Security happened, how Medicare happened, and how we got public education. It will be because most people will want it and will see it as a benefit to society.
And while you will be able to opt out like you can by going to private school or having your own retirement plan, you are still going to be required to pay into the system. Why? Because just as education is better for society than ignorance, health is better for society than sickness. Even if you opt out for a private medical plan, you are going to benefit when you can take a plane and the person next to you does not have TB because he/she could not get treatment because they could not get insurance.
What bothers me most about so many of you here is that you all make a lot of noise about 'doing the best for your clients." But when clients can't get coverage becasue they have diabetes or heart disease you turn you back and say "Well, gee they should have thought about that BEFORE they got sick."
Well the fix for that is to MAKE them think about that... by MAKING them get coverage... like it or not. The governements are just doing what many of you are saying should be done... making sure people get the coverage you and I know they need.
And my final word to Atlas is (especially on the 4th of July) if you don't like living here and the rules that we have to live under, move to Chad or Botswana or somewhere you will have all the personal choice you desire. Oh, and don't let the airport door hit you on your ass on the way out!
We already have national healthcare. It's called Medicare and Medicaid. the UK basically has the same system - the dirt poor stand in lines and get crap treatment, the middle and upper class buy private insurance and get great care.
Al, can you picture a scenario where you need care for someone like your wife and she's told it's 6 months to get a procedure done? I know I helped a friend of yours get coverage and her husband had a medical event. If I'm not correct, they went right to a specialist. How 'bout 3 months to see that specialist?
Interesting when and UNBIASED survey is done in Canada. Canadians who rave about their system don't use it. The few who use it abhor it. Since most of the country is healthy and uses little if any medical services any national poll is meaningless.
------------------------------------ Health Insurance Agents: Training, Support, Discounts, E&O for $440 www.ihiaa.com
Sadly you are right we probably will end up with a crappy national health care system. Just look what a wonderful job the government is doing with Medicare and Medicaid. I see you want the same " quality " system for all of us.
I'll also bet people that have more money will have their own health insurance will never use the crappy government run system you are all for.
I also see that Social Security is not doing so well Al. Looks like the government did not do to good of a job with running retirement plans either.
So how dose Al and others see a way to fix these many problems? Well more and more government involvement where government dose not belong to start with.
Why are you and other libs not pushing for real universal health care? I'm not talking about this national health care crap. I'm talking world wide coverage for all. Just think the UN could run it Al. Then no one in the whole world would would be without coverage. Why just stop with national, why not go all the way?
I also see that Social Security is not doing so well Al. Looks like the government did not do to good of a job with running retirement plans either.
Having worked in and around government (state) for 20 years I can see that you fail to see something that is obvious to me and anyone who has been close to government. Government programs are not set up to be efficient. They are set up to be fair. CA programs go to great legnth to have several layers of 'control' so as to keep corruption down to a minimum. And in this state it works. Is there any efficiency in government programs? Of course not. How can you get efficiency from a system not built to deliver it?
So how dose Al and others see a way to fix these many problems? Well more and more government involvement where government dose not belong to start with.
If you buy into the concept of government by, for, of the people (another argument for another day) the government 'belongs' anywhere enough voters want it to belong.
Why are you and other libs not pushing for real universal health care?
I'm not 'pushing' for a government run major med system, but I know as sure as the sun will rise that we ARE going to get one in my lifetime. Thus, I don't waste my time bitching about it. Another difference between the two of us is that I don't see another alternative. You want to keep the current system... with 40 million people without adaquate coverage? With your attitude I'd sure hate to be one of your clients. You know, this business of ours is not supposed to be about greed. It is not supposed to be a zero-sum game.... for me to win you have to lose.
I'm not talking about this national health care crap. I'm talking world wide coverage for all. Just think the UN could run it Al. Then no one in the whole world would would be without coverage. Why just stop with national, why not go all the way?
Thank you for the insult. You just can not win on facts, therefore you pull out the insults.
" If you buy into the concept of government by, for, of the people (another argument for another day) the government 'belongs' anywhere enough voters want it to belong. "
Well in that case the Nazis wanted to kill the Jews. That must be where the government belonged. The people in the USA used to want slaves, I guess that is where the government belonged.
" You want to keep the current system "
Wrong again. I want to end all government involvement in healthcare.
" with 40 million people without adaquate coverage? "
Of those 40 million how many do not want to have coverage?
" Government programs are not set up to be efficient. "
Well that is reason enough not to have any involvement in health care. It is also reason enough to keep them out of many things as possible. Thank you for admitting the truth about government.
" You know, this business of ours is not supposed to be about greed. "
Business is about making as much profit as you can do and do it with ethics. Serving and helping clients meet their financial needs. If I do not do a good enough job the market will put me out of business.
" With your attitude I'd sure hate to be one of your clients. "
What attitude are you talking about? What have I started insulting you or something like that? No I think you are the one who may have a bad attitude insulting me.
I also have many clients that would fully disagree with you. They love having me as their agent/planner. If not they would drop me. I even get Christmas cards from some of them. Some of them have even became my friends.
Now check that out, I replied to all of you bad points and never insulted you one time. Nor will I stoop to that level. It is far beneath me and my personal ethics. As I see you seem to have no problem insulting people. That is your right, if that is the path you choose. I'll just choose to walk on higher ground.
Al,
So how dose Al and others see a way to fix these many problems? Well more and more government involvement where government dose not belong to start with.
Ok, I thought it was a typo initially, and I don't normally comment on spelling on here, but this is driving me nuts... (on top of the fact that your "arguments" are not very sound...
The word "DOES" is spelled "DOES" not "DOSE"....
And, uh.... Al is the one who is using facts to argue his point. Atlas, you are the one who is simply giving your opinions on things.. Seriously, go back and read your posts. Show me one fact that you used.
This is by far the stupidest thing anyone has ever posted on this forum.
Well I myself did not to have health insurance till I was 29. I have only had health insurance for six years.
There are many rich and young folks out there that do not want health insurance. If they did I'm sure they would find an agent and buy some. That is what I did when I wanted health insurance.
Thank you for your spelling hints.
" Al is the one who is using facts to argue his point. "
What facts did Al use for national healthcare?
I'd also like to thank you for the insult. You guys just love insulting people. I wonder why?
Of those 40 million how many do not want to have coverage
Originally Posted by nate124
This is by far the stupidest thing anyone has ever posted on this forum.
How many? According to this, at least a third or more (not sure where Pilzer got his info from...) :
Forty-five million Americans lack any form of health insurance and live in fear of a major medical problem. Yet surprisingly, 80 percent of these people are employed and 16 million earn more than $40,000 per family ($20,000 per single).1 Approximately 15 million of these people are age 19-30 and choose either not to purchase health insurance or to participate in their employer’s health benefits program.
1 The poorest 38 million Americans (those who earn less than $20,000 a year) receive free health insurance through Medicaid.
------------------------------------ Nature has established patterns originating in the return of events, but only for the most part. -- Gottfried von Leibniz 1703 Under similar conditions, the occurrence (or non-occurrence) of an event in the future will follow the same pattern as was observed in the past. -- Jacob Bernoulli Ars Conjectandi 1713
" Forty-five million Americans lack any form of health insurance and live in fear of a major medical problem. Yet surprisingly, 80 percent of these people are employed and 16 million earn more than $40,000 per family ($20,000 per single).1 Approximately 15 million of these people are age 19-30 and choose either not to purchase health insurance or to participate in their employer’s health benefits program.
1 The poorest 38 million Americans (those who earn less than $20,000 a year) receive free health insurance through Medicaid. "
Thank you for the wonderful information. That is a very nice fact to know. It is always nice to meet someone from my home state.
Sicko the movie
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