Dave is a salesman, selling Dave. Be aware. In a few years it will be somebody else, just as there was somebody before Dave.
"You hit the nail on the head with "and still have a need as most people do."
Well, that's just what's happening.
90% of the leads I get are from people older than me (50). While it's great that you've been able to reduce your debt, most folks haven't been able to. Most people are retiring "red" these days. That is at 65, they still have a significant amount of debt (250k upward) that will be there for a decade or more.
You'll have to forgive me but I think your theory (Dave's) leaves no room for error. Yet, life is full of just that errors. I would suggest one have a plan with some flexibility that allows for market changes, real estate changes, life situation changes and everything up to and beyond the kitchen sink. I don't think Suzy or Dave can work in that environment because they have to sell an asbolute. A variable messes the heck out of them.
As I said, "if you're wrong, or things changed, what are you out?"
If you purchased WL insurance you are out the difference between a conservative investment return and the cash value policy. In my case I ballparked about $40 month for 20 years.
That said, I could let my policy go into premium offset at this point and have insurance for the rest of my life and never pay for it again and either help my spouse or give my kids and grandkids a hand up. So I prepaid $40 a month (my investment "loss") to have a 250k policy stay in effect for what hopefully will be about another 40 years. Did I really waste my money or did I plan ahead?
If this were land, I spent $40 a month to own a piece of property worth $250,000 to my family later after I'm gone.
Not that bad of a deal. And if my family pisses me off, I can always take my money back with a reasonable amount of return.
By the way, I am also became a diabetic and am hypertensive at this point in my life. So a premium offset policy sounds pretty good right now compared to a decline or table H policy that might cost $450 a month for term insurance.
So for my what if game. I think I did ok because like 40% of the population I came down with diabetes. Which while no longer the kiss of death for the ability to purchase a policy, certianly costs the farm to have one.
I could also cover how WL helps with FASFA and how it was the only investment that didn't go ass backwards on me, but it all depends on how we see the world.
Dave's assumption is your health won't change later in life, so if he's wrong, no problem you can still buy super preferred. All you have to do is look at the general health of the population to figure the odds there.
I bet that I wouldn't stay super preferred, and I didn't but my premium did and my policy stills covers me, when I couldn't get a new one or would have to pay a ridiculous amount to have it.
Everybody's got to live with their own "guess" on how things are going to be. I plan from worst case first... I mean if best case happens.. is there really anything to worry about?
Down market today? Did your green lights not go off soon enough?
Don't you have a spouse that you can be nasty to?
Is that really the best you can do, is "hurl" an insult that will make me cry into my pillow tonight?
You mistake me for someone who cares about what you have to say. I tried to ask you questions to learn more about what you do or where you picked up your ideas from, you never answered them. You're just a troll.
Make all the faces you want. Try and fall back on wit and sarcasim, both have failed you so far, but I'm sure you'll try again.
I'm in all cash right now.
I won't go back in 'til the next big drop.
All i'm asking is that you recognize the hypocrisy, lgiv.
You are slamming dave ramsey for being a salesman.
WTF are you?
If it's wrong for dave ramsey to be "a salesman", why is it ok for you to be a salesman.
If dave's advice should be doubted because he's a salesman... but you're a salesman too, the only logical conclusion is that your advice should be doubted too.
The truth is that everybody is in sales. you, me, dave ramsey, suze orman, CEO's, CIO's, accountants, lawyers (especially lawyers) every white collar job is a sales job and a lot of blue collar jobs are sales jobs too (e.g. hot dog stand, ice cream stand, etc...)
Please argue your points on their merits. don't bash dave ramsey for doing the same thing that you do ("sell stuff"). try to be just a little intellectually honest.
Kw
The sad thing is that if you're so self-deceived that you think dave ramsey is a salesman (but you're not), what really important issues are you deceiving yourself about?
I don't expect a reply.
Last edited by GonnaFlyNow : 09-24-2009 at 04:29 AM.
Ya'll are too funny. I haven't read this thread in a couple weeks and I come back and you're still arguing about the same thing. I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that you're not going to change each other's minds. I would recommend getting back to work instead of getting so hyped up with eachother.
All i'm asking is that you recognize the hypocrisy, lgiv.
No, you're still trying to justify yourself to people who really don't care what you have to say.
You are slamming dave ramsey for being a salesman.
WTF are you?
I'm a licensed regulated agent and registered rep. I can only "sell" in the state's I am licensed and registered in. On this website, I'm not selling anything, just providing my pov. You are free to read it or not.
If it's wrong for dave ramsey to be "a salesman", why is it ok for you to be a salesman.
Dave doesn't protray himself as one, I do in the states I am licensed in.
If dave's advice should be doubted because he's a salesman... but you're a salesman too, the only logical conclusion is that your advice should be doubted too.
Ding! Ding! Ding! The first statement you've made in this entire forum that is spot on. You are absolutely correct. Everyone's advice should be doubted until enough information is gathered for someone to make an intelligent decision for themselves. Does it have to match mine? no, not at all. Every person has the given right to succeed or fail in their efforts. IF I have made you defensive because I've raised a doubt in your plan, then the smart thing to do would be to think it through and adjust if necessary.
YOU only learn when you let loose of what you already know.
Please argue your points on their merits. don't bash dave ramsey for doing the same thing that you do ("sell stuff"). try to be just a little intellectually honest.
Coming from you, I find this really funny. Go back and look at your posts. This is truly a case of the pot calling the kettle "black". You're a troll, you've had no merit to your posts and resorted in name calling and sarcasim to attempt to win people over.
Me? I don't care if I win anybody over here to my thoughts about the whole thing. Why? Not one of you is a customer, there is no "selling" going on for my part. I don't care if I convince you of anything. You simply don't matter that much as you aren't very nice and can't debate your ideas without being extemely nasty.
The sad thing is that if you're so self-deceived that you think dave ramsey is a salesman (but you're not), what really important issues are you deceiving yourself about?
I think the sad thing here is something else entirely. Please don't private message me in the future. You offer nothing.
i'm in all cash right now.
I won't go back in 'til the next big drop.
All i'm asking is that you recognize the hypocrisy, lgiv.
You are slamming dave ramsey for being a salesman.
WTF are you?
If it's wrong for dave ramsey to be "a salesman", why is it ok for you to be a salesman.
If dave's advice should be doubted because he's a salesman... but you're a salesman too, the only logical conclusion is that your advice should be doubted too.
The truth is that everybody is in sales. you, me, dave ramsey, suze orman, CEO's, CIO's, accountants, lawyers (especially lawyers) every white collar job is a sales job and a lot of blue collar jobs are sales jobs too (e.g. hot dog stand, ice cream stand, etc...)
Please argue your points on their merits. don't bash dave ramsey for doing the same thing that you do ("sell stuff"). try to be just a little intellectually honest.
Kw
The sad thing is that if you're so self-deceived that you think dave ramsey is a salesman (but you're not), what really important issues are you deceiving yourself about?
I don't expect a reply.
LGilmore never denied he was a salesperson. All he said was to not be blindly led by someone, including Dave Ramsey. Ask questions. Be skeptical. We all deal in one way or another with people's financial futures, so all consumers have a right to try and poke holes in an advisors (or salesperson's) ideas. The fact is, DR's ideas have lots of holes to be poked but his followers generally don't question the 'what-if's' that LGilmore eloquently described. Moreover, he has ZERO accountability. If he recommends someone BTID and it's determined in the future there is some need for permanent insurance, or the market takes a dive right before retirement, the consumer has zero avenue for restitution. We, however, can be held accountable. Which is why we offer flexiblilty in our plans vs. SO and DR who work in absolutes.
LOL .. I don't know .. look at the countries where AXA, ING, ALLIANZ come from. Most of their population don't buy term and invest the difference. Look at the country with the biggest per capita life insurance production in the world. They haven't even heard of BTID. Look at the executives of Fortune 500 companies. They don't BTID. For that matter look at any successful small to mid size business owners. They don't BTID.
People who try to BTID
Teachers (public school)
Gov't bureaucrats
Green fund owners with 4 masters degrees
Engineers (ugh)
Gamblers/traders
I am familiar with some of the key players in this thread from other boards. Keep fighting the good fight.
If a person ONLY manages their own money and gives "Advice" to others, their "Advice" is limited to their own financial situation. Your plan is just that... "Your " plan. What value can an unlicensed individual offer.
My neighbor owns an A/C company. Does his investment "advice" have any merit. No! Because he is not held accountable to his "suggestion". A suggestion is different than advice.
A professional in the financial services industry has many "what ifs" to worry about. They are called clients. And with each client comes responsibility and LIABILITY. Protection, Promises and Guarantees are a good thing!. To think that permanent insurance is not a valuable asset to an overall portfolio, is silly. Not a product, but a part of a strategy.
The SO and DR followers receive excellent advice about lowering their debt. This is a wonderful thing. However, to speak about lost opportunities, and which No-load fund you could have invested in is worthless when your health does not allow you to purchase more insurance( or keep the death benefit you have now).
I tried to help an executive with an oil and gas company this week. He is 46, has a 250,000 mortgage on a home that is worth 385,000(very conservative for his income-Suzy would approve).
He was sold a 20 year term policy by an A.L. Williams follower(19 years ago). He was sold term as a commodity. He was sold term that could not be converted and was non-renewable. You know why? Because it was the cheapest.
He has 20 more years in the workforce and 5 kids under the age of 18! He wants more life insurance and would pay 10 times the amount he could have "invested" over the years(which he didn't) on insurance premiums today if he was insurable. You know why he did not invest the difference? Because A) 99% don't and B) the same person who sold him that line about BTID was not licensed to "SELL" him securities or real estate or anything else. Because he was a whole life replacing P.O.S. machine that made a fortune replacing policies.
That is the difference between "paper" and the 'What Ifs" of real life.
I have sold more term insurance than most BTIDers I have come across. But everyone of my clients understand that their policy is convertible WHEN their situation changes. They also understand there is a cost associated with this ability to convert. They understand the VALUE.
Do your clients a favor (If you have any) and at least sell a policy that can be converted. Your clients will thank you and your E&O provider will thank you(If you have one).
It's pretty damn funny reading. I never seen someone act in such a low manner in a futile effort to prove they're better than me. I'd feel complimented if your opinion mattered.
I am familiar with some of the key players in this thread from other boards. Keep fighting the good fight.
If a person ONLY manages their own money and gives "Advice" to others, their "Advice" is limited to their own financial situation. Your plan is just that... "Your " plan. What value can an unlicensed individual offer.
My neighbor owns an A/C company. Does his investment "advice" have any merit. No! Because he is not held accountable to his "suggestion". A suggestion is different than advice.
A professional in the financial services industry has many "what ifs" to worry about. They are called clients. And with each client comes responsibility and LIABILITY. Protection, Promises and Guarantees are a good thing!. To think that permanent insurance is not a valuable asset to an overall portfolio, is silly. Not a product, but a part of a strategy.
The SO and DR followers receive excellent advice about lowering their debt. This is a wonderful thing. However, to speak about lost opportunities, and which No-load fund you could have invested in is worthless when your health does not allow you to purchase more insurance( or keep the death benefit you have now).
I tried to help an executive with an oil and gas company this week. He is 46, has a 250,000 mortgage on a home that is worth 385,000(very conservative for his income-Suzy would approve).
He was sold a 20 year term policy by an A.L. Williams follower(19 years ago). He was sold term as a commodity. He was sold term that could not be converted and was non-renewable. You know why? Because it was the cheapest.
He has 20 more years in the workforce and 5 kids under the age of 18! He wants more life insurance and would pay 10 times the amount he could have "invested" over the years(which he didn't) on insurance premiums today if he was insurable. You know why he did not invest the difference? Because A) 99% don't and B) the same person who sold him that line about BTID was not licensed to "SELL" him securities or real estate or anything else. Because he was a whole life replacing P.O.S. machine that made a fortune replacing policies.
That is the difference between "paper" and the 'What Ifs" of real life.
I have sold more term insurance than most BTIDers I have come across. But everyone of my clients understand that their policy is convertible WHEN their situation changes. They also understand there is a cost associated with this ability to convert. They understand the VALUE.
Do your clients a favor (If you have any) and at least sell a policy that can be converted. Your clients will thank you and your E&O provider will thank you(If you have one).
P.S. Love the board
Welcome, loved the first post. It makes good sense. Are you sure you belong on here?
I am familiar with some of the key players in this thread from other boards. Keep fighting the good fight.
If a person ONLY manages their own money and gives "Advice" to others, their "Advice" is limited to their own financial situation. Your plan is just that... "Your " plan. What value can an unlicensed individual offer.
My neighbor owns an A/C company. Does his investment "advice" have any merit. No! Because he is not held accountable to his "suggestion". A suggestion is different than advice.
A professional in the financial services industry has many "what ifs" to worry about. They are called clients. And with each client comes responsibility and LIABILITY. Protection, Promises and Guarantees are a good thing!. To think that permanent insurance is not a valuable asset to an overall portfolio, is silly. Not a product, but a part of a strategy.
The SO and DR followers receive excellent advice about lowering their debt. This is a wonderful thing. However, to speak about lost opportunities, and which No-load fund you could have invested in is worthless when your health does not allow you to purchase more insurance( or keep the death benefit you have now).
I tried to help an executive with an oil and gas company this week. He is 46, has a 250,000 mortgage on a home that is worth 385,000(very conservative for his income-Suzy would approve).
He was sold a 20 year term policy by an A.L. Williams follower(19 years ago). He was sold term as a commodity. He was sold term that could not be converted and was non-renewable. You know why? Because it was the cheapest.
He has 20 more years in the workforce and 5 kids under the age of 18! He wants more life insurance and would pay 10 times the amount he could have "invested" over the years(which he didn't) on insurance premiums today if he was insurable. You know why he did not invest the difference? Because A) 99% don't and B) the same person who sold him that line about BTID was not licensed to "SELL" him securities or real estate or anything else. Because he was a whole life replacing P.O.S. machine that made a fortune replacing policies.
That is the difference between "paper" and the 'What Ifs" of real life.
I have sold more term insurance than most BTIDers I have come across. But everyone of my clients understand that their policy is convertible WHEN their situation changes. They also understand there is a cost associated with this ability to convert. They understand the VALUE.
Do your clients a favor (If you have any) and at least sell a policy that can be converted. Your clients will thank you and your E&O provider will thank you(If you have one).
Re: Suze Orman
Re: Suze Orman
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