I'm curious, if a prospect ever asked you for WL, would you sell it to them?
Only if it sliced AND diced.
Seriously, i would only sell it to them if they had all of their much higher fncl priorities in place and if they had a legitimate specific purpose--namely estate taxes and/or distribution of assets heirs.
I personally like guaranteed UL. For some of my less healthy clients, it's actually cheaper than term and you can overfund it if you want it to act like a WL policy. Also, like mentioned before, I work with companies that allow conversion for their term products 'just in case'. I'm actually converting someone this week who since getting a term policy has had a heart attack and a stent put in. You can't imagine how happy he is that he can convert his term in to something that will last a little longer.
Seriously, i would only sell it to them if they had all of their much higher fncl priorities in place and if they had a legitimate specific purpose--namely estate taxes and/or distribution of assets heirs.
So, do you normally dictate to them what THEIR financial priorities are? Sounds pretty arrogant to me.
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Originally Posted by briko3
I personally like guaranteed UL. For some of my less healthy clients, it's actually cheaper than term and you can overfund it if you want it to act like a WL policy. Also, like mentioned before, I work with companies that allow conversion for their term products 'just in case'. I'm actually converting someone this week who since getting a term policy has had a heart attack and a stent put in. You can't imagine how happy he is that he can convert his term in to something that will last a little longer.
Very cool. I'll need to check into that on a particular case I'm working on. He has HBP and Type II, it'll be interesting to see how bad it's rated. I can definitely see UL going through reinsurance and getting standard rates.
It truly is amazing how often I come across 60-70 year olds who either A) love their WL insurance now it's been in force for a while, B) wish they bought more when it was more affordable, or C) regret that they didn't depend so much on term insurance to solve a need that they didn't expect to last so long. I mean, the mortality tables are saying a newborn is going to live to 121! How many companies are selling 50 year term insurance policies for those newborns?
Last edited by Death Cab For Tootie : 09-08-2009 at 08:14 PM.
Reason: Posts merged
So, do you normally dictate to them what THEIR financial priorities are? Sounds pretty arrogant to me.
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any objective person can easily determine that there are many financial priorities that are higher than owning wl ins.
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Originally Posted by LGilmore
"i forgot about the FASFA"
Well, from your background, it looks like you'll learn a bit more about it in a few years when your daughters start looking to university. Then maybe the lightbulb will go off and I won't sound so silly to you. (Mine are 3rd med school and 4th year bio major and there's alot to learn.)
However, it's pretty clear you'll have to learn it on your own.
Cheers.
show me how wl will guarantee me that fasfa will pay me $20k per year for my two daughters college and i'll gladly buy a wl policy today.
Last edited by GonnaFlyNow : 09-08-2009 at 08:31 PM.
Reason: Posts merged
So, if you point out the flaws in what they're doing and they STILL want to buy a WL policy, will you not sell it to them?
I will not sell it to them unless, in my learned opinion, it is appropriate for them.
If they've got credit card debt and they want to buy wl, i'm not going to sell it to them. i'll try to explain to them why they shouldn't and hopefully they'll heed my advice and pay down the credit card debt. but i'm not going to sell them a wl, even if they beg me.
If they don't have disability insurance, and they want to buy wl, i'm not going to sell them a wl.
If they are not maxing out their 401k matching contributions, then i won't sell them a wl, even if they want it.
Etcetra etcetra etcetra
The point is, that most people can get a lot more bang for the buck by putting their money in places other than wl ins.
It's pretty basic common sense. but common sense is rare on this forum.
Last edited by GonnaFlyNow : 09-08-2009 at 09:02 PM.
I will not sell it to them unless, in my learned opinion, it is appropriate for them.
If they've got credit card debt and they want to buy wl, i'm not going to sell it to them. i'll try to explain to them why they shouldn't and hopefully they'll heed my advice and pay down the credit card debt. but i'm not going to sell them a wl, even if they beg me.
If they don't have disability insurance, and they want to buy wl, i'm not going to sell them a wl.
If they are not maxing out their 401k matching contributions, then i won't sell them a wl, even if they want it.
Etcetra etcetra etcetra
Refer them to me. Keep trying to sell them stuff they don't want to buy. I'll sell them what they want. Then I'll go back and get the DI and the IRA and whatever else they want or need.
I'm appalled at your arrogance. You obviously have a contempt for your prospect. It seems as though you think they can't make a decision for themselves. Who's gonna cut the check for what they want to buy - you or them?
Refer them to me. Keep trying to sell them stuff they don't want to buy. I'll sell them what they want. Then I'll go back and get the DI and the IRA and whatever else they want or need.
I'm appalled at your arrogance. You obviously have a contempt for your prospect. It seems as though you think they can't make a decision for themselves. Who's gonna cut the check for what they want to buy - you or them?
Wow. I never heard suitability described as arrogance before.
I think that by recommending the right product, i'm showing the utmost respect for them.
It's not that they can't make a deciison for themselves, it's just that they don't understand all their options. and the products that I sell as a licensed life and health agent are only a small subset of the various options which they have available to choose from.
I'd rateher walk away from a sale and sleep well, knowing i did the right thing, than take money from people that they should be putting somewhere else.
Call me old-fashioned, but i believe that what comes around goes around. if i do the right thing for others, good things will happen to me in the long run.
(and, byt he way, i don't think i'll refer them to you, if you don't mind. if they insist on ignoring my advice, i'll probably refer them to napfa)
Last edited by GonnaFlyNow : 09-08-2009 at 09:39 PM.
You won't get an argument from me on that. I also give my client their options. If they still choose something other than what I recommend, I mark it it in my file and GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT. Later, when I go back to them and give them what they NEED, they'll be open to me because they're a client. You'll try to go back and get the to do what they need and they'll tell you to buzz off. I win. You lose. I helped and served. You stayed on your high horse and got nothing for your effort.
Call ME old-fashioned, but THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.
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Originally Posted by GonnaFlyNow
(and, byt he way, i don't think i'll refer them to you, if you don't mind. if they insist on ignoring my advice, i'll probably refer them to napfa)
You'll refer them to other people who will try to sell them stuff the prospect DOESN'T WANT TO BUY?!?
/bangs head against wall repeatedly
Last edited by Death Cab For Tootie : 09-08-2009 at 09:51 PM.
Reason: Posts merged
"Suitability" is only valid in the eyes of regulators. They are the ones that say that "you made a non-inappripriate recommendation".
I cannot classify this process as being "fiduciary", but it's what I would do if I were the client with my knowledge.
Things happen. Car colisions happen. Homes do burn or flood. People do sue others. People become sick and need income and funds to pay for medical care. People die.
Insurance is usually looked at as a "necessary evil" and therefore are thought of as a commodity - so they look for the cheapest insurance possible.
When properly coordinated, good coverage can be had, investments can continue to grow and there would be no sacrifice in future retirement income.
If you skimp out on all those other coverages, then you leave a person's wealth open to creditors and predators claims.
This planning style may not build you the "highest net worth", but it will help you enjoy greater security, guarantees and increasing income with lower taxation.
To me, that's more suitable than leaving all their assets naked and without protection - and without ensuring that spouses will be well taken care of in the event of the breadwinner.
Being a life insurance agent is a calling. It appears that you are heavily in the "investment" financial planning world, while what we're describing is "insurance-based" financial planning.
I've lost sales for not giving people what they want. Learned that mistake early on.
BTW, Death Cab, if they really want term, I always run a guarantee UL for the amount of years they want. (you're right that permanent policies sometimes get reunderwritten to standard = a table shave program)
For example, if they want a 30 year term, I run a guarantee UL out for 30 years. If it's cheaper or the same price, they get the UL for 2 reasons. First, if they want to keep their policy after the 30 years, it's waaaay cheaper than continuing a normal term policy. Second, run one and see what the commission difference is! It's 2.5 times the comission and way better for the client as well.
That's what I call a win/win. Now, if you ONLY sell term, you could be giving them a HIGHER rate AND less flexibility.
They'll refer them to an insurance agent who can earn a commission. NAPFA is fee only and won't sell commissioned products.
THAT'S MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JUMPING JESUS ON A POGO STICK!!!!!!!!! GFN is gonna make the prospect jump through another frigging hoop to get to the thing they want and THIS IS WHAT IS GOOD FOR THE CLIENT?!? No wonder life sales are way down, everybody wants to be a consultant but nobody realizes that the public needs SALESPEOPLE.
I've lost sales for not giving people what they want. Learned that mistake early on.
BTW, Death Cab, if they really want term, I always run a guarantee UL for the amount of years they want. (you're right that permanent policies sometimes get reunderwritten to standard = a table shave program)
For example, if they want a 30 year term, I run a guarantee UL out for 30 years. If it's cheaper or the same price, they get the UL for 2 reasons. First, if they want to keep their policy after the 30 years, it's waaaay cheaper than continuing a normal term policy. Second, run one and see what the commission difference is! It's 2.5 times the comission and way better for the client as well.
That's what I call a win/win. Now, if you ONLY sell term, you could be giving them a HIGHER rate AND less flexibility.
The commission on a UL is 2.5x higher than a term policy of the same premium?! I can get upwards of 100% on a term policy depending on the company and roughly 65% on a UL. If the premium is the same for the 30 year period, how is the commission going to be higher on the UL?
And I see your point - if the premium is close, recommend the UL. The client definitely will once you show them what happens in the 31st year of that term policy....
Last edited by Death Cab For Tootie : 09-08-2009 at 10:11 PM.
Reason: Posts merged
Call ME old-fashioned, but THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.
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Tell that to the attorney, the insurance regulator, the compliance officer, et al. they will laugh in your face. but that's not even half as bad as trying to tell that to your Maker.
If you're selling wl to somebody who can't pay off their credit cards or who is not maxing out their 401k matching contributions, then you should be ashamed of yourself.
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Originally Posted by DHK
BTW, NAPFA won't sell them any insurance either.
They'll refer them to an insurance agent who can earn a commission. NAPFA is fee only and won't sell commissioned products.
No duh. like i didn't know that.
That's the point.
If they are wanting to buy wl when they can't pay off their credit cards, they don't need insurance. they need education. i'll try to educate them, but if they won't listen to me, hopefully they'll listen to the cfp.
The cfp is not going to tell them to buy wl when they can't pay off their credit cards and/or they are not maxing out their 401k matching contribs.
Last edited by GonnaFlyNow : 09-08-2009 at 10:52 PM.
Reason: Posts merged
That's why you take copious notes on EVERY sale. If all disclosures are made, and the client agrees to the premium... who am I to stand in his way?
Besides, you don't know if someone is buying a whole life policy, purchasing a "paid up additions" rider to borrow against those funds to consolidate the debt at a lower interest rate and payment and therefore ELIMINATE outside creditors from the policy holder's life and redirecting the client's existing cash flow from paying creditors to paying his life insurance policy.
But I'll be damned if I'm going to go into more detail about this in this thread with you.
tell that to the attorney, the insurance regulator, the compliance officer, et al. they will laugh in your face. but that's not even half as bad as trying to tell that to your Maker.
If you're selling wl to somebody who can't pay off their credit cards or who is not maxing out their 401k matching contributions, then you should be ashamed of yourself.
If I sell someone a WL policy, even though they need all the other stuff you listed (and then some), I'll sleep just fine. Why? I gave them more life insurance than they had before they met me. I'll never have to answer the question why I lost them 50% of their contributions because of the market. I'll never have to answer why I had them to defer 30% taxes only to be taxed at 50 or 60%. I'll never have to answer why they can't make any retirement contributions when they become disabled. I'll never have to answer why they got their savings and ability to earn a living taken away because they got sued.
That's why you take copious notes on EVERY sale. If all disclosures are made, and the client agrees to the premium... who am I to stand in his way?
Besides, you don't know if someone is buying a whole life policy, purchasing a "paid up additions" rider to borrow against those funds to consolidate the debt at a lower interest rate and payment and therefore ELIMINATE outside creditors from the policy holder's life and redirecting the client's existing cash flow from paying creditors to paying his life insurance policy.
But I'll be damned if I'm going to go into more detail about this in this thread with you.
Great idea.
Take copious notes to explain why they forced you to sell them a policy that was bad for them.
It doesn't matter what's right.
It doesn't matter what's really the best thing for them.
All that matters is that you cover your ass and get your commission check. that's all that matters.
You're doing that very well.
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Originally Posted by Death Cab For Tootie
If I sell someone a WL policy, even though they need all the other stuff you listed (and then some), I'll sleep just fine. Why? I gave them more life insurance than they had before they met me. I'll never have to answer the question why I lost them 50% of their contributions because of the market. I'll never have to answer why I had them to defer 30% taxes only to be taxed at 50 or 60%. I'll never have to answer why they can't make any retirement contributions when they become disabled. I'll never have to answer why they got their savings and ability to earn a living taken away because they got sued.
Yeah, I think I'll sleep just fine.
Your histerics lead me to believe thatyou're finally beginning to doubt your own sales pitches.
Thankfully.
It's late. bedtime for me.
Last edited by GonnaFlyNow : 09-08-2009 at 11:47 PM.
Reason: Posts merged
And agents turning against other agents is why people are afraid of insurance agents.
"Seek first to understand, THEN to be understood."
I suggest that YOU never sell whole life, because you don't think it's appropriate for your clients.
I suggest that Death Cab and I continue to advise and educate our clients on whole life and get them to want it and allow us to find ways that they can pay for it.
You can offer the "cheap advice" and we'll have a sign that says "we fix cheap financial advice".
Re: Suze Orman
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