WASHINGTON – Americans would be fined up to $3,800 for failing to buy health insurance under a plan that circulated in Congress on Tuesday as divisions among Democrats undercut President Barack Obama's effort to regain traction on his health care overhaul.
As Obama talked strategy with Democratic leaders at the White House, the one idea that most appeals to his party's liberal base lost ground in Congress. Prospects for a government-run plan to compete with private insurers sank as a leading moderate Democrat, Sen. Max Baucus of Montana, said he could no longer support the idea.
The fast-moving developments put Obama in a box. As a candidate, he opposed fines to force individuals to buy health insurance, and he supported setting up a public insurance plan. On Tuesday, fellow Democrats publicly begged to differ on both ideas.
Democratic congressional leaders put on a bold front as they left the White House after their meeting with the president.
"We're re-energized; we're ready to do health care reform," said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., insisted the public plan is still politically viable. "I believe that a public option will be essential to our passing a bill in the House of Representatives," she said.
After a month of contentious forums, Americans were seeking specifics from the president in his speech to a joint session of Congress on Wednesday night. So were his fellow Democrats, divided on how best to solve the problem of the nation's nearly 50 million uninsured.
The latest proposal: a ten-year, $900-billion bipartisan compromise that Baucus, who heads the influential Finance Committee, was trying to broker. It would guarantee coverage for nearly all Americans, regardless of medical problems.
But the Baucus plan also includes the fines that Obama has rejected. In what appeared to be a sign of tension, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs pointedly noted that the administration had not received a copy of the plan before it leaked to lobbyists and news media Tuesday.
The Baucus plan would require insurers to take all applicants, regardless of age or health. But smokers could be charged higher premiums. And 60-year-olds could be charged five times as much for a policy as 20-year-olds.
Baucus said Tuesday he's trying to get agreement from a small group of bipartisan negotiators in advance of Obama's speech. "Time is running out very quickly," he said. "I made that very clear to the group."
Some experts consider the $900-billion price tag a relative bargain because the country now spends about $2.5 trillion a year on health care. But it would require hefty fees on insurers, drug companies and others in the health care industry to help pay for it.
Just as auto coverage is now mandatory in nearly all states, Baucus would require that all Americans get health insurance once the system is overhauled to make premiums more stable and affordable. Penalties for failing to do so would start at $750 a year for individuals and $1,500 for families.
Households making more than three times the federal poverty level — about $66,000 for a family of four — would face the maximum fines. For families, it would be $3,800, and for individuals, $950.
Baucus would offer tax credits to help pay premiums for households making up to three times the poverty level, and for small employers. Upper middle-class households making between three and four times the poverty level would not have to pay more than 13 percent of their income for health insurance. People working for companies that offer coverage could avoid the fines by signing up.
Nonetheless, the fines pose a dilemma for Obama. As a candidate, the president campaigned hard against making health insurance a requirement, and fining people for not getting it.
"Punishing families who can't afford health care to begin with just doesn't make sense," he said during his party's primaries. At the time, he proposed mandatory insurance only for children.
White House officials have since backed away somewhat from Obama's opposition to mandated coverage for all, but there's no indication that Obama would support fines.
One idea that Obama championed during and since the campaign — a government insurance option — appeared to be sinking fast.
House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., told reporters a Medicare-like plan for middle-class Americans and their families isn't an essential part of legislation for him. Hoyer's comments came shortly after a key Democratic moderate said he could no longer back a bill that includes a new government plan.
That left liberals in a quandary. They've drawn a line, saying they won't vote for legislation if it doesn't include a public plan to compete with private insurance companies and force them to lower costs.
Rep. Mike Ross, D-Ark., who once supported a public option, said Tuesday that after hearing from constituents during the August recess, he's changed his mind.
"If House leadership presents a final bill that contains a government-run public option, I will oppose it," Ross said.
Democrats are considering a fallback: using the public plan as a last resort if after a few years the insurance industry has failed to curb costs. That approach is also being pushed by Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, a moderate whose support could be critical to any health legislation. Snowe said Tuesday that Obama's been open to her fallback idea. "He's been receptive, recognizing that there's difficulties with the public option," Snowe said. Republicans have cast it as a government take-over.
Baucus is calling for nonprofit co-ops to compete in the marketplace instead of a public plan. An 18-page summary of the Baucus proposal was obtained by The Associated Press. The complex plan would make dozens of changes in the health care system, many of them contentious. For example, it includes new fees on insurers, drug companies, medical device manufacturers and clinical labs.
People working for major employers would probably not see big changes. The plan is geared to helping those who now have the hardest time getting and keeping coverage: the self-employed and small business owners.
____ Associated Press writers Erica Werner, Ben Feller, Alan Fram and Jim Abrams contributed to this report.
Chumps From Oxford...you got that right...the chumps thing that is...you may not mind but the majority of America probably does. I take it you are one of those few who don't worry about money and that insurance fines won't take any bread and butter off of your table. What about all of the Americans who are out there serving you food, washing your cars, building your homes, working in the small grocery stores, etc. The income is not enough to afford the high cost of health insurance. Sure, there are plans out there that are becoming more reasonable, but when you don't have the extra money...how can you pay a fine too!? What's next? Will we be going to jail for not being able to pay the fines? Will we be denied any health services? Does that mean that we are not worth your time or consideration...don't tell me that we are lazy because WE ARE THE HUB OF AMERICA AND WITHOUT US, YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR FANCY MILLION DOLLAR HOMES OR CARS OR GROCERIES OR GAS OR MANY OTHER THINGS THAT YOU TAKE FOR GRANTED...LIKE THE DRY CLEANER THAT YOU USE EVERY DAY PROBABLY. WE ARE THE LITTLE PEOPLE, BUT WE ARE AMERICA'S HEART AND SOUL! WE PUT THESE CRAZY PEOPLE INTO OFFICE AND CAN VOTE THEM RIGHT OUT AGAIN!
Chumps From Oxford...you got that right...the chumps thing that is...you may not mind but the majority of America probably does. I take it you are one of those few who don't worry about money and that insurance fines won't take any bread and butter off of your table. What about all of the Americans who are out there serving you food, washing your cars, building your homes, working in the small grocery stores, etc. The income is not enough to afford the high cost of health insurance. Sure, there are plans out there that are becoming more reasonable, but when you don't have the extra money...how can you pay a fine too!? What's next? Will we be going to jail for not being able to pay the fines? Will we be denied any health services? Does that mean that we are not worth your time or consideration...don't tell me that we are lazy because WE ARE THE HUB OF AMERICA AND WITHOUT US, YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR FANCY MILLION DOLLAR HOMES OR CARS OR GROCERIES OR GAS OR MANY OTHER THINGS THAT YOU TAKE FOR GRANTED...LIKE THE DRY CLEANER THAT YOU USE EVERY DAY PROBABLY. WE ARE THE LITTLE PEOPLE, BUT WE ARE AMERICA'S HEART AND SOUL! WE PUT THESE CRAZY PEOPLE INTO OFFICE AND CAN VOTE THEM RIGHT OUT AGAIN!
Guess u should have voted more often to insure a republician won... u dumb ass, i agree with the chumpster... u require GI, then u require a mandate.... DTO ..... when a liberal socialist nutbag gets in then the common folk get nailed.... unless u are black
------------------------------------ I can't spell, I can't write..... and I can't be bothered if you dont like it... got it???
Guess u should have voted more often to insure a republician won... u dumb ass, i agree with the chumpster... u require GI, then u require a mandate.... DTO ..... when a liberal socialist nutbag gets in then the common folk get nailed.... unless u are black
Wow, I'm from Houston, grew up there. You have a wonderful vocabulary...not at all like that of my family and friends who still live in Texas.
You condemn me for having a point of view. I do vote, I did not vote for the President this past election simply because I did not like any of the candidates, but I did vote for everything else on our election ballots. I am not black (which honestly, I don't understand what that has to do with anything). I am simply an American (white, if you really must know) that has been affected by the economy...My husband is a carpenter and with the banking and housing situation, there are a lot of out of work construction people across America. He got laid-off last November, recalled in April only to be laid off in June, found a new job and was laid-off 2 weeks ago. How are we supposed to afford health insurance when it is taking everything to just keep afloat...question? in your mind...why the internet service then...because I help to bring in money by using my computer (a cheap one from Walmart) and internet service (cheap also with the bundling on our phone bill). Thank God (and our hard work) that our home is paid for and our cars are paid for. We owe very little as we only keep one credit card with a small amount of credit. We watch our money very carefully, but sometimes it's just not enough...and we are part of the biggest part of the American Work Force. You know, the stupid idiots who throw their money away on stupid things that aren't necessary like: utilties, food, gas, clothing, and taxes. You know, the carpenters, waiters and waitresses, grocery clerks, receptionists, tellers, farmers, hair dressers, bell hops, car washers, fast food workers, bakers, cooks, etc. Guess you don't know what it is like to just make ends meet or have forgotten. Don't accuse people of things that you don't know...and don't forget...the world isn't all rosy and clear. I at least will know how to survive when the bottom drops out...I grow my garden and raise my chickens to help with putting wonderful fresh food on my table. When the bottom drops out...I will have food and I know how to cook it as well. Will you?
If they decide to pass the Health Care Reform Act and they decide to put people in jail for not being able to pay for health insurance and the fines...I just hope they include a funding package for the jails and prisons they will need to house all of the "stupid" people like us who have already been hit by the economy.
Were you one of the ones who blamed G. Bush for the corporations that filed bankruptcy a month after he took office?
Were you one of the ones who condemned him for going to war...when you were demanding he go to war, in the first place?
Don't cry when you no longer have someone to smash under your feet or stock your grocery shelves or cash your check or do your dry cleaning because they are all in jail due to not being able to afford health care and the fines.
Thank You, your input has been most enlightening and informative. May you have a Blessed Day and Life.
There's already a fine for not having health insurance. It's just that everyone pays it except the person without insurance.
Yes, and the ones who pay dearly are the ones without the insurance as they get no, nada, nothing in the way of discounts for any services. Many do pay those bills, it just takes them time. Granted, there are many who don't even try to pay them, but it isn't fair to say that all don't and that the insured pays for all of those who don't have insurance. That's like saying that all insurance is a rip off, all politicians are crooks, all church goers are fanatics, etc.
No cell phone for no insurance...really smart. Does that mean that you can't have a phone period including a landline (which often costs more than a cell phone these days)...let's don't stop there...how about you can't buy a TV or own one (some are given that), or have a home phone or a vehicle to get back and forth to work every day, no drivers license, no radios, no 99 cent burgers (not that I do them anyway). Hey, while we are at it, the minute that hard working Americans become laid-off and can't pay for insurance....make them turn everything in that they worked hard to acquire...strip them of all that you think are luxuries including their homes...that should solve it all...they will buy insurance and not food so they can have their cell phone.
ANYBODY can afford some type of coverage. Most companies offer emergency only plans for cheaper than the upgrade to HBO, Cinemax, and Starz. Making it mandatory to have SOME type of protection will benefit everybody across the board. (especially us)
------------------------------------ "Sometimes when you bring the thunder, you get lost in the storm"- Kenny Powers
WASHINGTON – Americans would be fined up to $3,800 for failing to buy health insurance under a plan that circulated in Congress on Tuesday as divisions among Democrats undercut President Barack Obama's effort to regain traction on his health care overhaul.
As Obama talked strategy with Democratic leaders at the White House, the one idea that most appeals to his party's liberal base lost ground in Congress. Prospects for a government-run plan to compete with private insurers sank as a leading moderate Democrat, Sen. Max Baucus of Montana, said he could no longer support the idea.
The fast-moving developments put Obama in a box. As a candidate, he opposed fines to force individuals to buy health insurance, and he supported setting up a public insurance plan. On Tuesday, fellow Democrats publicly begged to differ on both ideas.
Democratic congressional leaders put on a bold front as they left the White House after their meeting with the president.
"We're re-energized; we're ready to do health care reform," said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., insisted the public plan is still politically viable. "I believe that a public option will be essential to our passing a bill in the House of Representatives," she said.
After a month of contentious forums, Americans were seeking specifics from the president in his speech to a joint session of Congress on Wednesday night. So were his fellow Democrats, divided on how best to solve the problem of the nation's nearly 50 million uninsured.
The latest proposal: a ten-year, $900-billion bipartisan compromise that Baucus, who heads the influential Finance Committee, was trying to broker. It would guarantee coverage for nearly all Americans, regardless of medical problems.
But the Baucus plan also includes the fines that Obama has rejected. In what appeared to be a sign of tension, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs pointedly noted that the administration had not received a copy of the plan before it leaked to lobbyists and news media Tuesday.
The Baucus plan would require insurers to take all applicants, regardless of age or health. But smokers could be charged higher premiums. And 60-year-olds could be charged five times as much for a policy as 20-year-olds.
Baucus said Tuesday he's trying to get agreement from a small group of bipartisan negotiators in advance of Obama's speech. "Time is running out very quickly," he said. "I made that very clear to the group."
Some experts consider the $900-billion price tag a relative bargain because the country now spends about $2.5 trillion a year on health care. But it would require hefty fees on insurers, drug companies and others in the health care industry to help pay for it.
Just as auto coverage is now mandatory in nearly all states, Baucus would require that all Americans get health insurance once the system is overhauled to make premiums more stable and affordable. Penalties for failing to do so would start at $750 a year for individuals and $1,500 for families.
Households making more than three times the federal poverty level — about $66,000 for a family of four — would face the maximum fines. For families, it would be $3,800, and for individuals, $950.
Baucus would offer tax credits to help pay premiums for households making up to three times the poverty level, and for small employers. Upper middle-class households making between three and four times the poverty level would not have to pay more than 13 percent of their income for health insurance. People working for companies that offer coverage could avoid the fines by signing up.
Nonetheless, the fines pose a dilemma for Obama. As a candidate, the president campaigned hard against making health insurance a requirement, and fining people for not getting it.
"Punishing families who can't afford health care to begin with just doesn't make sense," he said during his party's primaries. At the time, he proposed mandatory insurance only for children.
White House officials have since backed away somewhat from Obama's opposition to mandated coverage for all, but there's no indication that Obama would support fines.
One idea that Obama championed during and since the campaign — a government insurance option — appeared to be sinking fast.
House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., told reporters a Medicare-like plan for middle-class Americans and their families isn't an essential part of legislation for him. Hoyer's comments came shortly after a key Democratic moderate said he could no longer back a bill that includes a new government plan.
That left liberals in a quandary. They've drawn a line, saying they won't vote for legislation if it doesn't include a public plan to compete with private insurance companies and force them to lower costs.
Rep. Mike Ross, D-Ark., who once supported a public option, said Tuesday that after hearing from constituents during the August recess, he's changed his mind.
"If House leadership presents a final bill that contains a government-run public option, I will oppose it," Ross said.
Democrats are considering a fallback: using the public plan as a last resort if after a few years the insurance industry has failed to curb costs. That approach is also being pushed by Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, a moderate whose support could be critical to any health legislation. Snowe said Tuesday that Obama's been open to her fallback idea. "He's been receptive, recognizing that there's difficulties with the public option," Snowe said. Republicans have cast it as a government take-over.
Baucus is calling for nonprofit co-ops to compete in the marketplace instead of a public plan. An 18-page summary of the Baucus proposal was obtained by The Associated Press. The complex plan would make dozens of changes in the health care system, many of them contentious. For example, it includes new fees on insurers, drug companies, medical device manufacturers and clinical labs.
People working for major employers would probably not see big changes. The plan is geared to helping those who now have the hardest time getting and keeping coverage: the self-employed and small business owners.
____ Associated Press writers Erica Werner, Ben Feller, Alan Fram and Jim Abrams contributed to this report.
------------
You’re dat gum right fine them. Look here. One big piece of this is making the coverage mandatory … FOR THOSE WHO HAVE THE MONEY. Fact. 10,000,000 people live in families that make over $70,000 per year and have no coverage. Instead of allowing them to shift their costs onto us responsible folks via the E/R. We gonna fine ya *ss. That would be easier than bankruptcies and lien of property. Nail em up front. Now THERE is one measure of HCR that we would approve of.
“Oh well, Edna, they goin take our money anywho … shucks, I reckon we betta pony up on dat dare health cuv – er age this yea.”
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Originally Posted by SACStubbs
Wow, I'm from Houston, grew up there. You have a wonderful vocabulary...not at all like that of my family and friends who still live in Texas.
You condemn me for having a point of view. I do vote, I did not vote for the President this past election simply because I did not like any of the candidates, but I did vote for everything else on our election ballots. I am not black (which honestly, I don't understand what that has to do with anything). I am simply an American (white, if you really must know) that has been affected by the economy...My husband is a carpenter and with the banking and housing situation, there are a lot of out of work construction people across America. He got laid-off last November, recalled in April only to be laid off in June, found a new job and was laid-off 2 weeks ago. How are we supposed to afford health insurance when it is taking everything to just keep afloat...question? in your mind...why the internet service then...because I help to bring in money by using my computer (a cheap one from Walmart) and internet service (cheap also with the bundling on our phone bill). Thank God (and our hard work) that our home is paid for and our cars are paid for. We owe very little as we only keep one credit card with a small amount of credit. We watch our money very carefully, but sometimes it's just not enough...and we are part of the biggest part of the American Work Force. You know, the stupid idiots who throw their money away on stupid things that aren't necessary like: utilties, food, gas, clothing, and taxes. You know, the carpenters, waiters and waitresses, grocery clerks, receptionists, tellers, farmers, hair dressers, bell hops, car washers, fast food workers, bakers, cooks, etc. Guess you don't know what it is like to just make ends meet or have forgotten. Don't accuse people of things that you don't know...and don't forget...the world isn't all rosy and clear. I at least will know how to survive when the bottom drops out...I grow my garden and raise my chickens to help with putting wonderful fresh food on my table. When the bottom drops out...I will have food and I know how to cook it as well. Will you?
If they decide to pass the Health Care Reform Act and they decide to put people in jail for not being able to pay for health insurance and the fines...I just hope they include a funding package for the jails and prisons they will need to house all of the "stupid" people like us who have already been hit by the economy.
Were you one of the ones who blamed G. Bush for the corporations that filed bankruptcy a month after he took office?
Were you one of the ones who condemned him for going to war...when you were demanding he go to war, in the first place?
Don't cry when you no longer have someone to smash under your feet or stock your grocery shelves or cash your check or do your dry cleaning because they are all in jail due to not being able to afford health care and the fines.
Thank You, your input has been most enlightening and informative. May you have a Blessed Day and Life.
-------------------
Ah, bless this.
"God is on your team, not his. Is that the inference."
Let's leave god in the next world and keep our eyes on the money while we are in this one?
Look farm girl, if you're live'n close to the bone you've got medicaid. And I do hope you don't lose your home, etc.
Again, there are 10 million people who live in families that make over $70,000 per year with no coverage? Your thoughts on them?
Is it right to try and lower everyone's level of health ins. coverage by phasing out private plans via the pubic ... sorry public option?
We know it's rough out there. We hear it every day, all over the country.
Let's also stay on point. O.K.? Don't deviate off onto the war. Many of us have mixed "feelings" on that, but it is a separate issue. Lose one arguement at a time? Huh?
Last edited by ins.dave : 09-10-2009 at 12:36 PM.
Reason: Posts merged
Well, what we haven't seen yet (as far as this federal bill goes) is ASSET RECOVERY. Most states have already implemented it. It wouldn't surprise me if it comes up now.
Yeah, I get it from a business standpoint, but I don't like it from a personal one.
-----------------
“Business … personal …?”
That’s because you have your head up your tail pipe. “Personal ... standpoint.” Ughhhhhhh. What dross. The time for such wishy washy thought is over. We cannot measure and therefore regulate your “personal" viewpoint? That’s the thing about responsibity. It ain’t free. As a matter a fact, NOTHING is. Your suggestion? I know, we just rely on the sense of civic duty that the average American has to do the right thing and contribute now that it has been made abundantly clear that we have a real problem via the media? You can’t have it both ways. All nice and congenial? I can see it now. “I made pretty good money this year, perhaps I’ll contribute, and maybe drop a fiver in the nice man’s money jar.” Nephew please.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Originally Posted by Ron Van D
$3800 fine? Heck, I'll take that deal! I'll cancel my $700/month insurance and sign up for it when I need it.
What a country!!!!
-------------
Hello?
Maybe you would not have to pay $700 per month if they enacted these fines along with other measures of course.
Last edited by ins.dave : 09-10-2009 at 12:55 PM.
Reason: Posts merged
Nobody said you're going to jail. In fact, if your income is as low as you espouse, the government will help you pay for your coverage.
And my "Million Dollar Home." Not me.
"Dry Cleaners Every Day." Not me. In fact, try once every three months.
"America's Heart And Soul." Yep...that's me.
I like your spunky style, but just settle down a bit. We're all in this together.
Now..if you'll excuse me, I'm late for my polo match. (Satire)
Yes, Chumps, I am a little spunky. Sorry about the soap box, but when government starts telling the hard working American what they can and can't do in such a personal matter...well, try to understand...my husband has gone from working fairly steady...he's in construction so fairly steady means that rain didn't interfer too much that year...to just 5 months out of 9 this year...those things make you a little agitated and uncomfortable to say the least.
Yes, there will be help to pay...after the year has gone by...during tax season as always...money still has to come from up front. My husband is considered self employed...insurance costs can be quite high. Most of what we can barely afford has such a high deductible that we might as well be saving the premium because unless there is a major problem, (we'll be footing the bill anyway)...we'll be paying for everything plus the premium each month. Ah well, such is life...a never ending source of changes.
I'm not a country hick as some might think because I raise a garden and chickens. I am a city girl gone country. I have raised a garden since the kids were born. Chose to stay home with them to try to instill our morals not someone elses...cost us in the long run financially, but the reward of honest, respectful, hard working sons is worth every moment that I gave them of myself.
We won't lose our home...thanks to my grandmother always telling me to get prepared and live within our means. We raised 3 boys with very little financial assistance through those 27 years. What we did get put back has been slowly ate up by the economy and retirement is starting to look like a dream now. Just like the many other friends we have that are retired or getting there. So many of our friends who are "retired" have jobs just so they can make ends meet anymore. Honestly, if it weren't so far to the nearest store, I would consider a horse and buggy just to cut costs. Is there a doctor out there who would take a chicken or eggs as trade for services rendered?
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YIPES! Fines for No Insurance??
No cell phone for no insurance...really smart. Does that mean that you can't have a phone period including a landline (which often costs more than a cell phone these days)...let's don't stop there...how about you can't buy a TV or own one (some are given that), or have a home phone or a vehicle to get back and forth to work every day, no drivers license, no radios, no 99 cent burgers (not that I do them anyway). Hey, while we are at it, the minute that hard working Americans become laid-off and can't pay for insurance....make them turn everything in that they worked hard to acquire...strip them of all that you think are luxuries including their homes...that should solve it all...they will buy insurance and not food so they can have their cell phone.
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