Whole Life Advice

Two things:

1. Define economic impact

2. Does it really matter? The problem is still an overall loss with NML. We don't have to get into a discussion about M&E because we'll assume that's a constant (this isn't to say that everyone is going to pay the same in term of mortality as NML, let's just assume NML is the best as this and hold constants for everything else across the board for all companies and their dividend components right now.

The point is simply this, the change in the NML dividend is not enough to cover the overall loss the policy hold takes due to the spread between the dividend interest rate and the loan rate. Mortality is insignificant in this discussion because that's not changing.

If we compare two contracts NML being one and an NDR contract being another.

Let's assume the following on the NDR contract concerning it's dividend interest rate and loan rate:

Div int rate is 6.15%

Loan rate is 5.45%

Let's go back to your example and keep in mind that the mortality component isn't going to change in either situation.

On that $1,000 policy loan I'm going to earn 74.50 for the div int. component, but I'm also going to spend $80 in interest.

In the other scenario my div interest component doesn't change pays $61.5 and I'm only paying $54.5 in interest.

The piece about mortality here is a magician's trick, it puts the focus somewhere else.

Here's what we know empirically about whole life insurance. The div int. component is typically the most subject to change. Mortality and expenses are typically pretty stable (i.e. it's rare to see these move around very much). This can also be thought us from an intuitive stand point, consider this:

Both Massmutual and Guardian have been pretty well known for propping their div interest rates with revenues from other insurance lines (i.e. it's not just a function of general account performance for them). This is really the only area where they can account for a return of revenues through the dividend though. They mortality is pretty simple, either they paid more claims than they wanted to or they didn't. And expenses are equally simple, either they spent more than they assumed they would have or they didn't.

The same is true everywhere else. This can also be seen through the div int rate when Direct Recognition is used. They increase the dividend because the loan interest rate is so much higher than the div int. rate.

What does NML need the $5.5/$1000 borrowed on a policy for?

This fuels the Primerica's of the world.
 
Learning - sorry for the delay in my response. I haven't logged in for awhile. I agree with your post about trying to get the most information possible as it's hard for consumers. If you find the right broker then you're set, but for quantitative people like ourselves, we need to do the research and see the numbers to convince ourselves that it's the right move.. The guys on this forum were more than helpful, knowledgable and patient as I slowly got up to speed - thanks again!

As requested - here's a quick summary of what I did, and an update on how it's going. I signed up over a year ago so forgive me if I forget a few details - feel free to ask me any questions.

I ended up going with Guardian's L99 plan due to its strong rating, 5% PUA load, consistent div & strong disability language. As you'll read, it's hard to go wrong with any of the big guys like NYL, NML or MM. It also helped that my broker was a big Guardian fan so as I was leaning that way anyways, that was the kicker as it's important for your broker to know the carrier you use. I didn't go with the 10 pay as I saw many illustrations and didn't see the benefit (i know the illustrations are not reality, but it gives you an idea how your policy should look assuming dividends stay where they currently are) plus I wanted the disability benefit till 99 not for 10 years.

I blended some term along with my WL policy so that I could throw in as much money in my first few years (term kicks up the MEC line for some reason). My goal was to throw as much cash into a policy in the first few years so I would be 'paid up' quick, and get the highest IRR possible while getting the benefits of WL (disability benefits, death benefit, and cash bucket i can borrow against). Part of my thinking was that I had some extra cash in the bank doing nothing and I'm under 30 with little expenses - but who knows what will happen in 2-5 years. So I wanted to get a policy in force quickly, not have a large yearly future 'liability' and I also liked the idea of having a cash bucket that I can potentially borrow against in case I need liquidity.

So far, I've maxed out PUA for the past 2 years and I have been able to put in 6.5X my annual premium. As my term fully converted to perm this year, going forward I can only put in 3x to 4x my premium. I also went with the waiver of premium, plus I scheduled some PUA so I could get a waiver of premium on that too.

Good luck with your research and let me know if I can help in any way.
 
going forward I can only put in 3x to 4x my premium.

No, once the term is gone you can only put in 3x base premium without underwriting, and after year 10 it's 1x.

Still, way better than some of the other PUA riders out there, but with the term gone, you're going back to underwriting to get that done.

You're original post was 6/15/2010 when you told us you were looking into doing this and now you've been putting PUA's into your policy for the past two years?

You've put in enough PUA's to replace the term and not MEC-ed the contract? I'd like to see that. I could see converting all the term, but dumping PUA's to replace all term in the first year and a half (assuming you put this in force the same month as your last post) without a MEC would be quite special.
 
Hi BNTRS

You're original post was 6/15/2010 when you told us you were looking into doing this and now you've been putting PUA's into your policy for the past two years?

how time flies... my policy started the next month so I'm in year 2 and I've already max PUA for 2 full years. (I've also been prepaying so i paid in year 1 for year 2 at 4.75% discount and this year that's dropped to 3%).


You've put in enough PUA's to replace the term and not MEC-ed the contract? I'd like to see that. I could see converting all the term, but dumping PUA's to replace all term in the first year and a half (assuming you put this in force the same month as your last post) without a MEC would be quite special.

Wouldn't it all depend on how much term you bought? In my case, I haven't gotten my 2012 annual summary (and won't get it till next year) that would detail my perm vs term but my broker told me that at the max PUA for year 2 that all my term would be replaced. He also assured me it would not MEC. I was allowed to put in 4.7x my premium in year 1 and year 2 I was allowed over 8x - not sure why in year 2 it allowed so much but I guess that's why I was able to replace all my term.
 
Wouldn't it all depend on how much term you bought? In my case, I haven't gotten my 2012 annual summary (and won't get it till next year) that would detail my perm vs term but my broker told me that at the max PUA for year 2 that all my term would be replaced. He also assured me it would not MEC. I was allowed to put in 4.7x my premium in year 1 and year 2 I was allowed over 8x - not sure why in year 2 it allowed so much but I guess that's why I was able to replace all my term.


Maybe, but the amount of db those PUA's buy would require a lot of cash to be in that policy relative to total db in year two. You can get an in-force illustration any time you want by calling Guardian's Customer Service at 1-800-441-5455.
 
No, once the term is gone you can only put in 3x base premium without underwriting, and after year 10 it's 1x.

Still, way better than some of the other PUA riders out there, but with the term gone, you're going back to underwriting to get that done.

You're original post was 6/15/2010 when you told us you were looking into doing this and now you've been putting PUA's into your policy for the past two years?

You've put in enough PUA's to replace the term and not MEC-ed the contract? I'd like to see that. I could see converting all the term, but dumping PUA's to replace all term in the first year and a half (assuming you put this in force the same month as your last post) without a MEC would be quite special.

I agree that i find it really odd that all your term would be converted already. Also if I am doing a similar policy I usually try and have much more term in order to allow for greater use of PUA's.
 
Ok, so if I have say 100k cv and want to borrow, what would NWM do different than Guardian as far as loan rates and div.?
I was just talking to my ins. guy today who sells NWM and he said they charge 8% fixed, but lower the div. on borrowed funds. He said the running charge rate on the loan is about 2-3%...

NWM 8% loan div about 5% on loaned funds

Guardian 8% loan div of ....???

Thank you Johnyblu for coming back and letting us know what you did, and all the others for the detailed answers!
 
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