Mass Mutual invests in Bitcoin

[Travis Price]

Travis, you are on a roll there, bud. Need a hug?

I don't think so.. but I do like hugs.

I like when people join in the conversation, if they have something to contribute. This person rarely does.

SCAgent has made some points that would have me soften my stance on absolutely ZERO regulation to some regulation in certain instances.

However, there's a core issue that's problematic for me.. It's the idea that there's almost no fraud in crypto or that it's significantly less than in stocks. That's just untrue.

I mean, if he wants to prove me wrong with actual facts, awesome! But that's not what's happening.

There's a second issue, for me that's troubling. Stocks aren't nearly as buzz worthy as crypto and NFTs are right now. So, and this is just an opinion, it's logical to me that people are impacted more when fads are popular vs stocks, which aren't nearly as "sexy" today.

I agree there are some crackdowns on US based crypto markets, but crypto is not a US currency or based only in the US. That means that scams are harder to address in unregulated markets (which are a feature of blockchain and crypto) that are international.l in nature.

I do think you will see crypto move into the mainstream, eventually. However, at this point, it's still a fringe asset that, on a large scale isn't regulated and more open to fraudulent activity due to its hype...

Ymmv..

I think I've adequate seen this convo become a circle. So I'm happy to let it die.

 

[Tahoe Ray]

I agree there are some crackdowns on US based crypto markets, but crypto is not a US currency or based only in the US

It's tough to paint "crypto" with a brush like this. Companies like VISA are starting to use USD coin, which is a stable coin built on the ethereum blockchain but is pegged to the US dollar.

I get some of what you're saying regarding fraud and scams but not all crypto is created equal. That's why these massive financial companies are starting to consider various uses for it.

 

[scagnt83]

This isn't so much a you're right and I'm wrong argument.

That's not true, at all. You tried to buff yourself up by being "right" when you aren't.

This cycle right here is why so many "conversations" devolve into this.

You are so busy trying to prove you are not "wrong", you barely listen to what the other person is really saying.

I never said you should invest in crypto... not once... but you spent probably 9+ paragraphs trying to convince me as to why it is not something you would invest in.

All I said was fraudulent crypto activity was not out of line with other sectors of the US economy. Gave multiple examples and context to support my statement.

Was just trying to have a conversation. Never once tried to be negative or aggressive towards you.

Yet you feel I was trying to "buff up" simply because I did not agree with a statement you made. That is not a healthy or constructive way to approach what is supposed to be a friendly and respectful convo. Your whole demeanor and tone has been defensive and borderline abrasive from your first response to me. Just because I did not agree with a statement...

 

[scagnt83]

Cryptocurrency Scams Took in More Than $4 Billion in 2019

Seafood fraud costs US citizens over $25 billion annually. That not counting the taxes and tariffs illegally avoided.

Bait and Switch: The Fraud Crisis in the Seafood Industry

 

[scagnt83]

Secondly McAfee wasn't charged by the SEC for a pump and dump. He was charged with Securities Fraud for not disclosing he was compensated or owned a stake in a ICO he was promoting.

Pump and dumps REQUIRE there be fraudulent statements that manipulate the market.


How Does a Pump and Dump Scam Work?

SEC.gov | SEC Charges John McAfee With Fraudulently Touting ICOs


"According to the SEC’s complaint, McAfee promoted multiple ICOs on Twitter, allegedly pretending to be impartial and independent even though he was paid more than $23 million in digital assets for the promotions. When certain investors asked whether he was paid to promote the ICOs, McAfee allegedly denied receiving any compensation from the issuers.

Pump and Dump is a type of Securities Fraud. People who run a pump and dump are charged with Securities Fraud.


John McAfee charged with securities fraud for ‘pump and dump’ cryptocurrency scheme

“McAfee and Watson exploited a widely used social media platform and enthusiasm among investors in the emerging cryptocurrency market to make millions through lies and deception,” said US Attorney Audrey Strauss in a statement. “The defendants allegedly used McAfee’s Twitter account to publish messages to hundreds of thousands of his Twitter followers touting various cryptocurrencies through false and misleading statements to conceal their true, self-interested motives.”

The pair allegedly ran their scheme between December 2017 to October 2018. McAfee used his verified Twitter account, which currently has around 1 million followers, to recommend a “Coin of the Day” or “Coin of the Week.” The indictment says McAfee claimed to have no stake in these altcoins; in reality, McAfee would allegedly buy large quantities beforehand using bitcoin, then offload them again after his followers had driven up the price.

 

[scagnt83]

In regulated crypto markets, you're right.. Pump and dumps are illegal. However, most crypto markets ARE NOT regulated. And pump and dumps are not "illegal" because they aren't regulated.. this is by design. The anonymity behind crypto is a selling point.

No. US law prohibits this with ANY ASSET Travis. Not just stocks.

There have been "pump and dump" scams in real estate and in other asset classes. And they have been prosecuted by regulators and the Justice dept.

Artificially inflating the price of an asset using false statements or similar means, for the purpose of defrauding others... IS ILLEGAL. Period. Doesnt matter what it is. It could be the price of used cars. Its illegal. There are general laws against it that encompass all types of assets, investments, and "stores of value". Its up to regulators to enforce those laws.

Im not saying it is a highly regulated space. Most areas of our economy are not. It needs more regulation, very similar to Equity or Commodity markets.

But to say that pump and dumps are not illegal, is 100% incorrect. They are illegal with any and every asset in the United States.

 

[Travis Price]

It's tough to paint "crypto" with a brush like this. Companies like VISA are starting to use USD coin, which is a stable coin built on the ethereum blockchain but is pegged to the US dollar.

I get some of what you're saying regarding fraud and scams but not all crypto is created equal. That's why these massive financial companies are starting to consider various uses for it.

I'm totally getting what you're saying, but I think you can paint broadly.

Here's why:

You're citing an exception, not a rule.

Yes, regulations are in the works. Yes, this one coin is tied to USD. Yes, some markets are federally regulated.

Which is why I'm willing to soften my stance a little.

However, generally (which imo is the assumption of how the vast majority of the public evaluates a market) There's a lot of changes on the horizon in how crypto is regulated and how it can be used in the future, but it isn't there yet.

I've never been against crypto as a whole or even forever. Based on today's information though, my statements are accurate, imo.

(FYI, this is in part about me being right, to a degree.. because if I'm completely, or even largely, missing the mark I need to re-evaluate and possibly change my stance.)

 

[Travis Price]

You are so busy trying to prove you are not "wrong", you barely listen to what the other person is really saying.

Not true. I did read and process what you're saying. The point is that you are making really poor or misleading arguments devoid of objective information.

Pump and Dump is a type of Securities Fraud. People who run a pump and dump are charged with Securities Fraud.


John McAfee charged with securities fraud for ‘pump and dump’ cryptocurrency scheme

“McAfee and Watson exploited a widely used social media platform and enthusiasm among investors in the emerging cryptocurrency market to make millions through lies and deception,” said US Attorney Audrey Strauss in a statement. “The defendants allegedly used McAfee’s Twitter account to publish messages to hundreds of thousands of his Twitter followers touting various cryptocurrencies through false and misleading statements to conceal their true, self-interested motives.”

The pair allegedly ran their scheme between December 2017 to October 2018. McAfee used his verified Twitter account, which currently has around 1 million followers, to recommend a “Coin of the Day” or “Coin of the Week.” The indictment says McAfee claimed to have no stake in these altcoins; in reality, McAfee would allegedly buy large quantities beforehand using bitcoin, then offload them again after his followers had driven up the price.

SEC.gov | SEC Charges John McAfee With Fraudulently Touting ICOs

The SEC's press release (which is the charging entity) does not make this argument.

According to the SEC’s complaint, McAfee promoted multiple ICOs on Twitter, allegedly pretending to be impartial and independent even though he was paid more than $23 million in digital assets for the promotions. When certain investors asked whether he was paid to promote the ICOs, McAfee allegedly denied receiving any compensation from the issuers. The complaint alleges that McAfee made other false and misleading statements, such as claiming that he had personally invested in some of the ICOs and that he was advising certain issuers.

Pump and dumps cannot be illegal if they are in unregulated markets, because there is no jurisdictional law to regulate them.

For example, US based companies are regulated by the US, which is why you're seeing a crackdown in US based companies. However, in unregulated markets, especially in multinational international ones, the US does not have jurisdiction.

 

[Travis Price]

No. US law prohibits this with ANY ASSET Travis. Not just stocks

This is the actual problem. No one, not one time, has said that pump and dumps or other fraudulent activity ONLY applies to stocks. You make an argument on something that isn't argued to knock it down. That's a logical fallacy called a strawman argument.

I'm saying that regulated markets are not the same as unregulated markets. Stocks, real estate, and other investments are regulated, and have jurisdictional law.

Unregulated markets do not. Granted, not ALL Crytpo is unregulated and in a different post I cited an academic paper as to why it's difficult for a good bit of Crypto markets to be Regulated.

That may likely change in the future. It is not that way now.

I'm making a specific argument/point. You're making a broad point that has nothing to do with mine.

All I said was fraudulent crypto activity was not out of line with other sectors of the US economy. Gave multiple examples and context to support my statement.

You didn't. You gave broad strokes on things that are not similar at all.

Olive oil, seafood, and the closest you came was "stocks" without providing context. Are you talking about large cap? Small cap? Micro cap?

Please show me where comparably stocks have the same rate of fraudulent activity as Crypto.

Your argument devolved into silly because you didn't provide context. Look at Olive Oil and Seafood.. FRAUD!

Stocks have stricter insider trading laws than real estate or other regulated assets.

Unregulated markets, which crypto definitely has both, do not answer to insider trading laws in the US BECAUSE they are unregulated.

For example, the US can't charge a person for Murder that was committed in Japan. Japan nor the US cannot charge for a murder that happened in China. When a market is multinational it has to be Regulated by the country in which the fraud occurs. This is tricky where there are multiple jurisdictions that are overlapping that may have different regulations.

While an older article, here's some context for stock manipulation and crypto manipulation

How Is Trading Cryptocurrency Different From Stocks And Forex Trading?

 

[scagnt83]

SEC.gov | SEC Charges John McAfee With Fraudulently Touting ICOs

The SEC's press release (which is the charging entity) does not make this argument.
.

The statement I quoted was from the the Federal Prosecutor who is prosecuting the Securities Fraud case in court.