Clinton's Loss & the Tim Kaine Selection

[AgentOrange]

This is not to say Trump did not win. Don't misconstrue my intention, we can certainly explore Trump's path to victory. I think there is a lot of very interesting aspects to Trump's victory.

However, as the numbers become more clear and the pundits begin dissecting the electoral break down, I find it interesting there's group think that Clinton's loss is endemic to Democratic policies. I don't think that is so.

The pundits are continuously saying Clinton ignored white working class America and this is the cause for loss. However, the numbers are showing she didnt get the African American turnout Obama got. She lost Wisconsin by 27,000 votes but underperformed Obama by 60k votes in Milwaukee. The point is the votes were there.

Trump didnt really bring in new voters either. He still has underperformed Romney's numbers.

The reason why I say this is because a friend of mine mentioned last night she thinks it was the choice of Tim Kaine that ultimately cost Clinton the election. She believed Corey Booker (granted she knows him in some charitable capacity) or Joaquin Castro would have been a better choice and communicator with these critical bases.

***Side note: this is by no means me saying Democrats should not pay more attention to white working class people in middle America. They should and they have not given enough attention there through the years.

 

[Norwayguy]

I'm sorry who votes for or blames the bottom half of the ticket.

 

[AgentOrange]

I'm sorry who votes for or blames the bottom half of the ticket.

I think Mike Pence is an excellent example of how the bottom half of the ticket can influence voters.

 

[Winter_123]

The pundits are continuously saying Clinton ignored white working class America and this is the cause for loss. However, the numbers are showing she didnt get the African American turnout Obama got. .

You are doing a binary thing as usual. It is not either whites/or black votes. It is both. She got fewer than Obama with both.

Trump Won a Lot of White Working-Class Obama Voters


In regard to having the Castro guy on the ticket, I though it was Julian rather than Joaquin they were looking at it. Anyway. I am one who got suckered early on into thinking that they would choose him for the ticket to get the hispanic vote. Then I read somewhere that the problem with him is that HE DID NOT SPEAK SPANISH- ALMOST NOT AT ALL. Where the frig were they headed with that. The guy is a zero unknown who is sent out there as a pretty boy to communicate with the hispanics and cannot even speak spanish. Meanwhile the republicans have two hispanics and three spanish speakers in the primary.

The best way to have helped that ticket would have been to get Hillary off of it.

 

[nylife11023]

I think Mike Pence is an excellent example of how the bottom half of the ticket can influence voters.

I agree. In reading history the last time that a VP helped a ticket was when JFK tapped LBJ who brought Texas with him. (JFK was disliked in Texas, and it is not ironic he was killed there.)

But since then the VP is not important unless the president dies or resigns.

I think Pence is more important that most VPs because Trump is old, he is fat, he does not take care of himself (I'm surprised he does not have an STD) and seems to be a prime candidate for a stroke or heart attack. I will be surprised if Trump even makes it to the end of his first term, much less into or past his possible second.

The stress and strain and workload of the modern day presidency makes it a job for a younger person. Look how much young presidents like Clinton, GW Bush and Obama aged after their time in office.

Since Trump never released his medical history, I have a feeling there is something he is hiding... probably heart related. So if he passes in a year or so, I won't be surprised.

(I would have said the same thing about HRC had she won. I bet she is in worse shape than he is!)

 

[AgentOrange]

You are doing a binary thing as usual. It is not either whites/or black votes. It is both. She got fewer than Obama with both.

Trump Won a Lot of White Working-Class Obama Voters


In regard to having the Castro guy on the ticket, I though it was Julian rather than Joaquin they were looking at it. Anyway. I am one who got suckered early on into thinking that they would choose him for the ticket to get the hispanic vote. Then I read somewhere that the problem with him is that HE DID NOT SPEAK SPANISH- ALMOST NOT AT ALL. Where the frig were they headed with that. The guy is a zero unknown who is sent out there as a pretty boy to communicate with the hispanics and cannot even speak spanish. Meanwhile the republicans have two hispanics and three spanish speakers in the primary.

The best way to have helped that ticket would have been to get Hillary off of it. T

Sure, but she didn't have to beat Obamas numbers, she had to beat Trump.

 

[Winter_123]

I think Mike Pence is an excellent example of how the bottom half of the ticket can influence voters.

Speaking of VP's, pardons etc., I heard one of the learned pundits on tv this morning talking about how Ford pardoned Nixon but paid a price for it because he was not RE-ELECTED.


For those who know their history, the irony there of course is that Ford was never elected as either VP or as President by anyone, anywhere. Not the first time and certainly not the second. People who are out there quibbling about the electoral college vote, should try to wrap their head around that factoid and try it out. We had one president who got absolutely zero popular votes and absolutely zero electoral college votes. Normally, he would have ZERO CHANCE of being president. Not a trick viewers should try at home.

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Sure, but she didn't have to beat Obamas numbers, she had to beat Trump.

Well, yeahhhhhh. Duh.

As I said, the best way to help that ticket would have been to get Hillary off of it.

Or did I miss something, and Hillary proved that she had what it takes to beat trump? Maybe my source material is wrong and she won.

Oh I get it. Your analysis only looks at Obama so we dont need to worry about Trump and your model says that Trump is only allowed to get a certain number of votes. I see. So the root cause then is that Trump did not get your memo.

 

[AgentOrange]

Speaking of VP's, pardons etc., I heard one of the learned pundits on tv this morning talking about how Ford pardoned Nixon but paid a price for it because he was not RE-ELECTED.


For those who know their history, the irony there of course is that Ford was never elected as either VP or as President by anyone, anywhere. Not the first time and certainly not the second. People who are out there quibbling about the electoral college vote, should try to wrap their head around that factoid and try it out. We had one president who got absolutely zero popular votes and absolutely zero electoral college votes. Normally, he would have ZERO CHANCE of being president. Not a trick viewers should try at home.

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Well, yeahhhhhh. Duh.

As I said, the best way to help that ticket would have been to get Hillary off of it.

Or did I miss something, and Hillary proved that she had what it takes to beat trump? Maybe my source material is wrong and she won.

Yeah, that's the thing we are discussing here, Hillary Clinton's ticket. There's some valid thought that Sanders would have played well in the "rust belt" but his foreign policy and defense positions were really weak.

I think Trump would have pounded him on them. I think he would have been even more vulnerable on healthcare and trade was basically a net/net draw with Trump. But this all even more speculative than Clinton because we have no data to work with like we do with Clinton.

 

[Winter_123]

Yeah, that's the thing we are discussing here, Hillary Clinton's ticket. There's some valid thought that Sanders would have played well in the "rust belt" but his foreign policy and defense positions were really weak.

I think Trump would have pounded him on them. I think he would have been even more vulnerable on healthcare and trade was basically a net/net draw with Trump. But this all even more speculative than Clinton because we have no data to work with like we do with Clinton.

The elephant in the room that the dems don't want to talk about is the fact that Hillary really did not do that well with women either. It is considered to be heresy to even speak it out loud. She did well in general - 54%- but not considering that that was her major calling card, center of her campaign, and where she was supposed to mop up in a major way. She portrayed Trump- with plenty of evidence to go with it- as a full time professional misogynist- and the enemy of all women. Yet she only beat him by about 8 points in getting the womens vote. That, my friends, is not pretty and shows that not only are men flaccid about hillary but many women as well.

We saw this coming in the primary. She was out there berating men as being out of touch and resistant to having a woman as president. Meanwhile all the young, progressive women (who did not need hillary to explain how to be a woman) were out there supporting a 74 year old white guy who was not even a democrat. Maybe she can work on that a little for the 2020 campaign.

 

[AgentOrange]

The elephant in the room that the dems don't want to talk about is the fact that Hillary really did not do that well with women either. It is considered to be heresy to even speak it out loud. She did well in general - 54%- but not considering that that was her major calling card, center of her campaign, and where she was supposed to mop up in a major way. She portrayed Trump- with plenty of evidence to go with it- as a full time professional misogynist- and the enemy of all women. Yet she only beat him by about 8 points in getting the womens vote. That, my friends, is not pretty and shows that not only are men flaccid about hillary but many women as well.

We saw this coming in the primary. She was out there berating men as being out of touch and resistant to having a woman as president. Meanwhile all the young, progressive women (who did not need hillary to explain how to be a woman) were out there supporting a 74 year old white guy who was not even a democrat. Maybe she can work on that a little for the 2020 campaign.

Right. The women thing is indicative of overall lower democratic turnout. In the end it was enthusiasm. My point is that Kaine didn't really match up with Obama's legacy. He was just this blah guy that didnt really mesh with democrat bases. The votes were there, the Clinton ticket would have benefitted from a VP that could appeal to those voters.